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Old 08-12-2013, 03:12 PM   #1
Cobb Tuning
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Default UPDATE - v333 beta maps here! Underboosting with v330 maps on 2008-2013 STi?

UPDATE: The v333 maps have been officially released for the 2008+ STi. This now concludes beta testing. A big thank you to all those who provided feedback. You can find the v333 maps in the maps section at cobbtuning.com:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/Accessport...i/STI-map-grid


Quote:
UPDATE: v332 Beta maps now available (see link below). Please note that these are still considered as "beta" but should address the underboosting issues experienced by most users. PLEASE revert to the "normal" WG map if you have been using the HWG version of the v330 or v331 maps! The v332 maps also address the reported high idle behavior and a lower RPM "hiccup" seen on some cars with v330/v331.

UPDATE: v333 Beta maps now available (see link below). These maps incorporate all previous changes (v331 and v332) but also reverts the "I" mode behavior back to provide the same throttle response as stock. Boost control is still disabled for "I" mode.

Hi guys!

First off, thank you for your patience and understanding regarding the new v330 maps for the 2008-2013 STi. This mapping update was the first of its kind for us -- it introduced, at long last, truly synchronized maps across all years of the "GR" generation STi. While this may not seem like a big deal initially, what it does it allows us to apply all of the learning and advanced tuning strategies we've adapted over time all the way back to the original 2008 STi. It also makes it much easier for you guys to compare logs to different model year cars, causes less confusion between map notes, etc.

As such, we had to make sure the release would err to the side of safety, given how many vehicles would be affected. Because of this, very conservative WGDC tables were used. They still allow for target boost values to be reached under some conditions (boost-happy cars running in cool climates with very free exhaust systems) but have caused many reports of underboosting for a wide range of other customers. Please note that this is a far safer situation than if many thousands of cars suddenly began overboosting after a map update Your car is at no risk due to the underboost and you may actually find that power isn't as degraded as you might expect with lower boost. However, we understand the desire to get your cars back up and running to full boost, so there will soon be an v331 update available intended to restore boost levels to their targets on a wider range of vehicles.

Again, thank for your patience and support. The logs you have submitted are very helpful. If you have more questions, please be sure to ask them and I will do my best to help address them.

When changing maps to a different version, it is critical to use the REFLASH function to change maps and NOT the REALTIME function. After a reflash, the throttle response will be a bit on the soft side for a period of time due to the learned throttle parameters being reset. Please allow up to 7 days or so of driving before the normal throttle response returns.


Cheers

Lance
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Last edited by Cobb Tuning; 11-22-2013 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:48 AM   #2
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Lance,

Thank you very much for looking under this particular rock. Also, big thanks to Bill for his well-educated and "patient" feedback ; )

I look forward to the release of the v331 maps and I hope they will remedy the under boost situations that are affected by the new v330 maps.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:42 PM   #3
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Maps have been updated further. Please find link to latest maps in first post of this thread.

Quote:
Hey guys, wanted to let you know that we have a BETA v331 map update available to test out for the 2008-2013 STi as a follow-up to our recent large v330 update. Please initially revert to the "normal" WG map if you have been using the HWG version of the v330 maps. There are revised Stage2, Stage2+CPF, Stage2+SF and Stage2+AEM maps available to help address these specific concerns:
  • Underboosting relative to map note targets
  • Lethargic throttle response at low pedal positions
  • Reported low load "cruise" knock

The new maps can be downloaded here:

Please note they are in a raw structure/format, so you'll have to drill down to your appropriate model year and specific map of choice.

PLEASE be sure to immediately let us know if you observe any issues with the map. It would also be great to hear back if these maps fully address the issue for you so that we can move towards a formal release or make any other necessary tweaks

Thanks again for everyone's patience and help!

Cheers

Lance

Last edited by Cobb Tuning; 10-09-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:34 PM   #4
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Some observations on my 2011 STi.

Relevant Mods:
Stage 2
Stock Intake/Filter
Cobb catted downpipe
Invidia Q300 catback
94 octane gas
23C / 55% humidity / 300' ASL

#1
WGDC in the High Wastegate map in v331 are still too low. I peak briefly at 18.2psi and then hold around 17.5psi.

The below WGDC tables are what I need to hit and hold target boost.




#2
Timing is *really* conservative compared to older tunes. I'm able to add in 2+ degrees through all high load ( 3000 - 7000rpm) regions without any knock at all. Clearly this is done on purpose, and can't be faulted.

Logs available if you want them.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:41 PM   #5
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Thanks for the update! Logs would be great, especially if you can make sure that injector duty cycle is in the logging list. Thanks!

Lance
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:45 PM   #6
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Injector Duty cycle maxed out at 86% in all of my runs. I'll clean up and post my logs later today. However this is with a modified fuel map and my MAF scaled so it won't be relevant to v331.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:36 PM   #7
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Is there any chance you could post a log from an unedited version of a Stage2 map as well? Perhaps the HWG version since that appears to be closest to your needs? I understand you have tweaks you like to apply but having pre-edit data would be super helpful as well. Thank you!
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Old 08-17-2013, 05:50 PM   #8
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The new v3.31 did make quite a bit of difference from v3.30, but they are still not performing as well for me as the v3.10 maps.

I am still getting over 1.5 TD Boost error, and the funny thing is, the HWG maps have the same issue, other than a bit quicker spool. I have gone through a half tank of gas on Stage 2 91 HWG v3.31, and am only able to achieve 17.2 MAX boost.

The engine seems to run smoother (perhaps due to the ignition timing changes mentioned by SnowSTI).

But, please explain the logic behind the changes in the WGDC %. It doesn't make any sense why the v3.10 maps exhibit a higher percentage as the RPM increase, whereas the v.3.30 and v.3.31 exhibit a lower percentage as RPM increase, as well as more empty cells for the Requested torque tables.

It just seems backwards to me....

Stage 2 93 NWG v3.10:



Stage 2 93 NWG v3.30:



Stage 2 92 NWG v3.31:


Last edited by Masterman; 08-17-2013 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Pics
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Old 08-17-2013, 05:57 PM   #9
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Hey bud, many thanks!! You don't need to keep taking the time to post pics of the tables -- I have the maps available for reference Looks like you've confused yourself a bit as well -- the last picture is definitely not a v331 map.

On the v330+ maps, WGDC does not increase with RPM because our testing has shown that this greatly increases EGBP, exacerbates the likelihood for boost creep and does not meaningful increase power levels. Each new model year brings a new learning opportunity and we have found that doing that (WGDC that ramps upward with RPM) is an aggressive method of tuning that yields little/no power gains.

The logged Boost Target values should not be thought of as the definitive guide for the exact boost curves you should be seeing. The Boost Target tables are not shaped to exactly mirror real-world response of the turbo and WGDC tables, only generally approximate it. Seeing a positive TD Boost Error value is not a problem in and of itself.

Cheers

Lance
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:08 PM   #10
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Also, it would be nice to be able to compare the different year maps. I can't load a 2010 or 2013 map in ATR to compare/contrast the differences over my 2012 My maps..

Anyone care to chime in on this?
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Hey bud, many thanks!! You don't need to keep taking the time to post pics of the tables -- I have the maps available for reference Looks like you've confused yourself a bit as well -- the last picture is definitely not a v331 map.

On the v330+ maps, WGDC does not increase with RPM because our testing has shown that this greatly increases EGBP, exacerbates the likelihood for boost creep and does not meaningful increase power levels. Each new model year brings a new learning opportunity and we have found that doing that (WGDC that ramps upward with RPM) is an aggressive method of tuning that yields little/no power gains.

The logged Boost Target values should not be thought of as the definitive guide for the exact boost curves you should be seeing. The Boost Target tables are not shaped to exactly mirror real-world response of the turbo and WGDC tables, only generally approximate it. Seeing a positive TD Boost Error value is not a problem in and of itself.

Cheers

Lance
Lance,

Thanks for the reply, you must have responded after I edited the pics.

I understand that you have the map values at hand, but I just wanted to show the difference to other people in the same boat as I am, and possibly learn a bit more (which you thankfully provided ). Also, EGBP is an acronym I am not familiar with (Exhaust Gas Bypass Pressure? ).

All I know is that whatever is coded in the v3.10 maps makes my car run a quite a bit more "aggressive", which I like.

For instance, I wanted to know why there are more zeroed out values for the WGDC in the Lower Requested torque cells. Given that S# is what I typically drive around in, I'm wondering if the Throttle pedal sensitivity has anything to do with WGDC% in those Lower Requested torque levels, and perhaps that's why I am experiencing such a less aggressive engine response???

I want to learn more about these things, and sometimes my conclusions which I think are possibly "on the right track" end up being incorrect..

I would still love to see a side by side comparison of all the changes that occurred from V3.30 to V.331, so that perhaps I can better understand what your focus and logic is on how to proceed in making more desirable results..

Last edited by Masterman; 08-17-2013 at 06:27 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:05 PM   #12
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Another thing I noticed in the V3.30+ maps is that there is now a new value for Requested Torque. Instead of increasing by a value of 10 (which is evident on older maps, as well as the factory map) cell #4 is now a 15% increase followed by a 5% increase (290-305, and 305 to 310). What's the purpose of this and why are cells 1-4 all 0's, rather than the older maps having WGDC values in them? Is this the 2800RPM phantom you guys have been chasing after for years?

Sorry for all the fastidious/numerous questions, but I would just like to know..

Thanks
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:15 PM   #13
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Sorry about the pictures, but I couldn't help myself.

Ummm...What's going on here? Just noticed it after driving my car in I mode to see what the guy over in the following thread was talking about:

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/ecu-tuni...ap-revs-3.html

Stage 2 91 v3.10 Req. TQ Intelligent:



Stage 2 91 v3.10 Req. TQ Sport:



Stage 2 91 v3.10 Req. TQ Sport#:




Stage 2 91 v3.31 Req. TQ Intelligent:



Stage 2 91 v3.31 Req. TQ Sport:



Stage 2 91 v3.31 Req. TQ Sport#:


Last edited by Masterman; 08-17-2013 at 09:16 PM. Reason: pics
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:43 PM   #14
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Cobb is using the Requested Torque Limit tables for I,S,S# to limit boost in I,S,S# modes.

It's an extremely good idea. It gives a consistent pedal feel at low throttle angles for all SI-Drive modes. It makes engaging the clutch much easier because you don't have to worry about what mode you're in.

Lance/Bill do you have some numbers behind the fact that there isn't any real power loss at high RPM with much lower boost/WGDC? My MAF logs do seem to indicate this, but I assume you guys have spent hours on the dyno to come to this conclusion.

I'd personally find it really interesting if you could explain how you came to these conclusions? Not debating it at all! Just curious.

I've gone through all of my previous logs and I don't actually have a "clean" virgin v331 log to post. I almost always modify Maf Scaling, Primary Open Loop Fueling A/B, Primary Ignition, Boost Targets for S mode only ( to 14.7psi ).

If you would like me to do some clean runs with a virgin v331 I will. Just let me know what you want logged. I've also got a AEM UEGO wideband which I can include in the logs if you like.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:54 PM   #15
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SnowSTI,

I see (in the v3.10 maps) boost select being used to limit boost in I,S,S# modes, but in v3.31, all the Req. Torque tables have the exact same values. That's why I posted the screenshots.

After really going into ATR pretty thoroughly for a few hours, I noticed that Req. Torque is a sensor input that is used for MANY things. That is why when I saw the Throttle tables for v3.31, I wanted to point out the condition that exists there.

Really looking forward to hear back from Cobb about this, as I am now very fascinated about ATR
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterman View Post
SnowSTI,

I see (in the v3.10 maps) boost select being used to limit boost in I,S,S# modes, but in v3.31, all the Req. Torque tables have the exact same values. That's why I posted the screenshots.

After really going into ATR pretty thoroughly for a few hours, I noticed that Req. Torque is a sensor input that is used for MANY things. That is why when I saw the Throttle tables for v3.31, I wanted to point out the condition that exists there.

Really looking forward to hear back from Cobb about this, as I am now very fascinated about ATR
The requested torque tables are all the same to provide the same throttle response in all SI-DRIVE modes (updated in v3.20 maps and up). Please see map notes "Revision Notes" section for a listing of this and other changes to maps:
https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtu..._STI_08-13.pdf

We found that most of our customers did not like the intelligent or sport mode throttle response and always go straight to sport #. So, by allowing for the same responsive throttle in all 3 modes, the modes can now be used to limit boost without a loss of driveability. This is accomplished by a set of separate req. torque limit tables for each SI-DRIVE mode that limit the output of the main tables.

Bill
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:32 PM   #17
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I have a 2011 STI with an SF Intake (with the air box) and an Invidia Catback.

Since installing the v330 maps, I now have two problems:
1. There is a noticeable stumble in low RPM part-throttle, especially on the highway. I only noticed it last night and I haven't had enough time to figure out how to reproduce it.
2. I cannot hit target boost at all even with the HWG map. On the HWG map, I max out around 16.5psi, confirmed with my Defi boost gauge.

On the v300 maps, I did have some low RPM stumble but it was usually when starting off. It never manifested itself on the highway. This is largely eliminated on the v330 maps.

I was planning on getting in some track time this week so I'm going to revert back to v300 so my car can relearn everything. I saw that there was v331 for Stage 2 cars, but that doesn't apply to me.

For what it's worth, I only drive in S#.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveMasterT View Post
I saw that there was v331 for Stage 2 cars, but that doesn't apply to me.
I was wondering myself why they haven't released any v3.31 stage 1 maps...


JiveMaster, if you have ATR you can increase your WGDC very easily using the steps provided by Bill:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...7&postcount=11
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterman View Post
I was wondering myself why they haven't released any v3.31 stage 1 maps...


JiveMaster, if you have ATR you can increase your WGDC very easily using the steps provided by Bill:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...7&postcount=11
I'm guessing they didn't do a v3.31 for Stage 1 because most people buy an AP for Stage 2. It is what it is I guess.

I might try that to see if I can get back to target boost. I only have Macs available to me right now but I guess I can load up ATR in VMWare or something.

I flashed back to v300 already and honestly the car is completely different. It just reacts the way I want it to. It looks like the new Req Torque table technique might be provide more consistent pedal feel at the expense of raw power in S#. It's also possible that the difference in the butt dyno is because of the changes to the AVCS that they mentioned in the notes. Either way, I do notice that I start to develop boost MUCH later in the v330 maps vs v300.

I don't know that these are good trade offs. If this is the direction the OTS maps are going, then I'll have to start tuning myself. I was happy with everything on the v300 maps except for the gas mileage and the low RPM stumble.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #20
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Who can email me the 3.00 or 3.10 version maps. Lost mine in a PC crash. Looking for st1 maps in all fuel grades
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluewaterAWD View Post
Who can email me the 3.00 or 3.10 version maps. Lost mine in a PC crash. Looking for st1 maps in all fuel grades

I have the v3.10 2012 maps, but I don't know how you can change them over to 2011...


https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Wc&usp=sharing
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:53 PM   #22
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They're the same maps! I'm hoping that JiveMasterT or SnowSTI2011 will be able to provide as well so that I can validate, but, I believe they are the same. I'll check shortly. If either of you can, please PM me or email what you have over - awdizzle at gmail dot com

Thanks a bunch!
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Old 08-18-2013, 07:18 PM   #23
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I only have the 93 octane versions of the v300 maps for 2011 STIs. Here they are: http://d.pr/f/ma2h
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Old 08-18-2013, 07:33 PM   #24
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Well, we are getting there! If you hve anything other then 330 I'm interested JiveMaster
Thanks!
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveMasterT View Post
I have a 2011 STI with an SF Intake (with the air box) and an Invidia Catback.

Since installing the v330 maps, I now have two problems:
1. There is a noticeable stumble in low RPM part-throttle, especially on the highway. I only noticed it last night and I haven't had enough time to figure out how to reproduce it.
2. I cannot hit target boost at all even with the HWG map. On the HWG map, I max out around 16.5psi, confirmed with my Defi boost gauge.

On the v300 maps, I did have some low RPM stumble but it was usually when starting off. It never manifested itself on the highway. This is largely eliminated on the v330 maps.

I was planning on getting in some track time this week so I'm going to revert back to v300 so my car can relearn everything. I saw that there was v331 for Stage 2 cars, but that doesn't apply to me.

For what it's worth, I only drive in S#.
Many thanks for your feedback! Would love to see any logs you can provide of the issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveMasterT View Post
I'm guessing they didn't do a v3.31 for Stage 1 because most people buy an AP for Stage 2. It is what it is I guess.
Not at all. We simply hadn't gotten any feedback regarding the Stage1 maps yet, so Stage2 were updated first You are equally important as any AP owner and we appreciate that support!

Cheers

Lance
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