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Old 09-25-2013, 08:52 PM   #176
jojo69
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Edit: seems this apply only to sti's nvmd i need to learn how to read
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Last edited by jojo69; 09-25-2013 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:49 PM   #177
Steck121
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Please let me know what you think.

Car: STI 2013
Mods: AP Stage 1
Fuel: Shell v-power 93 Oct
Map: Cobb OTS 332 Beta 91 NWG (non-ACN)
S# mode

Approximately 64 def F with 70% humidity. 700'

First (better)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-wd...it?usp=sharing

Second
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-wd...it?usp=sharing
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:30 AM   #178
Masterman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steck121 View Post
Please let me know what you think.

Car: STI 2013
Mods: AP Stage 1
Fuel: Shell v-power 93 Oct
Map: Cobb OTS 332 Beta 91 NWG (non-ACN)
S# mode

Approximately 64 def F with 70% humidity. 700'

First (better)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-wd...it?usp=sharing


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-wd...it?usp=sharing
Are you sure you are Stage 1? You are overboosting a little over 1 psi in your first log (18.66 psi, boost target is 17.5). While all other values indicate no problems, I would keep an eye on it before you are forced to switch over to the dreaded LWG mapping. Second log is similar, the two counts of -1.4 FKL were quickly learned out, so no worries there.

How many miles on the flash as this is important. Uphill, flat, or downhill pull?

If you have a lot of steep grades, then this will exacerbate overboosting and boost creep (going uphill WOT).

Keep an eye out on your boost levels, especially as it get colder and less humid.

Also, you seem to be overboosting only when the Calculated Load is above 3. For some reason I can only attribute this to a few things. You're going uphill or you have a lot of weight in the car. Perhaps Cobb or someone else can elaborate on this is I rarely, if ever, exceed 3 on my car.

-Masterman

Last edited by Masterman; 09-27-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:01 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterman View Post
Are you sure you are Stage 1? You are overboosting a little over 1 psi in your first log (18.66 psi, boost target is 17.5). While all other values indicate no problems, I would keep an eye on it before you are forced to switch over to the dreaded LWG mapping. Second log is similar, the two counts of -1.4 FKL were quickly learned out, so no worries there. How many miles on the flash as this is important. Uphill, flat, or downhill pull? If you have a lot of steep grades, then this will exacerbate overboosting and boost creep (going uphill WOT). Keep an eye out on your boost levels, especially as it get colder and less humid. Also, you seem to be overboosting only when the Calculated Load is above 3. For some reason I can only attribute this to a few things. You're going uphill or you have a lot of weight in the car. Perhaps Cobb or someone else can elaborate on this is I rarely, if ever, exceed 3 on my car. -Masterman
Thanks for the input. I was thinking I was overboosting. The road I was on was mostly flat country road with a few dips, not a highway. This could attribute to the the differing loads. On the second run I let off about 10% for 0.5 sec on the way up.

I had about 40 miles on the map when I took the log. I can take another log today on a flat road if needed. Should I try the 93 NWG tune?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:42 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steck121 View Post
Thanks for the input. I was thinking I was overboosting. The road I was on was mostly flat country road with a few dips, not a highway. This could attribute to the the differing loads. On the second run I let off about 10% for 0.5 sec on the way up.

I had about 40 miles on the map when I took the log. I can take another log today on a flat road if needed. Should I try the 93 NWG tune?
40 miles is really to early to analyze Datalogs. I would go through at least a 1/2 tank and several cold start cycles before making any decisions.

In the meantime, monitor Boost (especially in higher gears) and feedback knock as well as fine knock learning. If you have a v3 AP this can be done very easily.
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:11 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterman View Post
40 miles is really to early to analyze Datalogs. I would go through at least a 1/2 tank and several cold start cycles before making any decisions. In the meantime, monitor Boost (especially in higher gears) and feedback knock as well as fine knock learning. If you have a v3 AP this can be done very easily.
Thanks, will do. I actually have a V3 on its way!
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:39 PM   #182
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I have a V3 on its way too - ordered it almost 2 weeks ago and it still hasn't shipped WANT!
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:00 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterman View Post
Are you sure you are Stage 1? You are overboosting a little over 1 psi in your first log (18.66 psi, boost target is 17.5). While all other values indicate no problems, I would keep an eye on it before you are forced to switch over to the dreaded LWG mapping. Second log is similar, the two counts of -1.4 FKL were quickly learned out, so no worries there.

How many miles on the flash as this is important. Uphill, flat, or downhill pull?

If you have a lot of steep grades, then this will exacerbate overboosting and boost creep (going uphill WOT).

Keep an eye out on your boost levels, especially as it get colder and less humid.

Also, you seem to be overboosting only when the Calculated Load is above 3. For some reason I can only attribute this to a few things. You're going uphill or you have a lot of weight in the car. Perhaps Cobb or someone else can elaborate on this is I rarely, if ever, exceed 3 on my car.

-Masterman
The calculated load is just that...caluclated load...its going to be higher with more boost whether its from spikes through the WOT pull or if there was a bigger turbo or even with colder weather as air density increase. As far as the overboosting I would just multiply the WGDC right hand column by .95 or .96 to take of 4 or 5% of WGDC. It think if was on a LWG map it would be somewhere of around 10% taken out which would probably suck.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:35 PM   #184
Masterman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy8818 View Post
The calculated load is just that...caluclated load...its going to be higher with more boost whether its from spikes through the WOT pull or if there was a bigger turbo or even with colder weather as air density increase. As far as the overboosting I would just multiply the WGDC right hand column by .95 or .96 to take of 4 or 5% of WGDC. It think if was on a LWG map it would be somewhere of around 10% taken out which would probably suck.
Thanks for clarifying that. Is there a sensor that interprets this value? I know the STi has active yaw, independent ABS sensors etc., but isn't that more a part of the TCMs role? I guess the ECU ultimately determines this anyways.

I just have never seen high values in my Datalogs (over 3.5) even if mashing the pedal in 6th gear on the highway. This also brings up another question: why is there no 6th gear timing, boost and load comp tables in ATR? There is only 1-5 per gear strategies. Is this intentional, or a possible error?

Thanks,
Masterman
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:01 AM   #185
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Yeah the calculated load is based on how much air is moving through the intake.
If you look at the logs of high HP builds, E85 you will see the CL get up there. I barely hit 3 most of the time. I have had 3 STI's going back to 2007 and its always been up to gear 5, I am guessing 6th gear just follows the same strategy because its up there. Thats why I never pass anything without downshifting.

I think this is the CL formula.
Air mass (g / intake stroke) = [total engine air mass (g/sec)] / [rpm (revs/min)* (1 min / 60 sec) * (1/2 # of cylinders (strokes / rev)]
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Old 09-28-2013, 03:41 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterman View Post
Thanks for clarifying that. Is there a sensor that interprets this value? I know the STi has active yaw, independent ABS sensors etc., but isn't that more a part of the TCMs role? I guess the ECU ultimately determines this anyways.

I just have never seen high values in my Datalogs (over 3.5) even if mashing the pedal in 6th gear on the highway. This also brings up another question: why is there no 6th gear timing, boost and load comp tables in ATR? There is only 1-5 per gear strategies. Is this intentional, or a possible error?

Thanks,
Masterman
Load is a very simple calculation but is only indirectly related to boost. It is directly related to MAF and RPM. No fancy sensors needed, just the MAF sensor and an RPM signal

Calculated Load = MAF / RPM * 60

Example -- MAF = 250 g/s, RPM = 5000 RPM.

Calculated Load = 250 / 5000 * 60 = 3.0.

Cheers

Lance
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Old 09-28-2013, 06:05 PM   #187
Masterman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Load is a very simple calculation but is only indirectly related to boost. It is directly related to MAF and RPM. No fancy sensors needed, just the MAF sensor and an RPM signal

Calculated Load = MAF / RPM * 60

Example -- MAF = 250 g/s, RPM = 5000 RPM.

Calculated Load = 250 / 5000 * 60 = 3.0.

Cheers

Lance
Thanks Lance. Makes perfect sense with the example you gave as well

I never see really more than 280 g/s in my logs anyways, so that explains alot. People with upgraded intakes and such will have alot more air going over the MAF, which is what made me really question this in the first place.

Also, did you get my email I sent you last Sunday?

There is some info in it that may be worth your time
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:22 PM   #188
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UPDATE: v333 Beta maps now available (see link below). These maps incorporate all previous changes (v331 and v332) but also reverts the "I" mode behavior back to provide the same throttle response as stock. Boost control is still disabled for "I" mode.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...87&postcount=1

Thanks for everyones patience and feedback along the way! This is very likely to be the last "beta" revision before transferring to a full update/release.

Cheers

Lance

Last edited by Cobb Tuning; 10-09-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #189
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Link doesn't work. Asks to login, so I created an account. Once I did that and retried the link, it says "The item you are trying to access has either been deleted or is unavailable to you."
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:08 AM   #190
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Can't DL maps from that link. Says required to login.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:12 AM   #191
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Should be fixed now. Sorry guys!

LL
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:26 AM   #192
Masterman
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Are the A/F D Learning ranges still omitted in these maps?

BTW, I've gone back to the v3.10 maps. After running v332 beta for over 1,000 miles, I've discovered they are "temperamental" and the throttle angles for the SI drive are not consistent. Fuel mileage suffered quite bad (probably because of this reason).

Bottom line: v3.10 maps work better for me.

Until I get rid of the stock catback, I'm going to refrain from using the v3.3x maps. If you would like more detail Lance, we can have another phone conversation or discuss via email.

edit- and BTW I have a few mem snapshots if they can tell you anything. I don't know how to access them or read/interpret what they say.

Thanks again for your time and effort on this project!

-Masterman

Last edited by Masterman; 10-09-2013 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:11 PM   #193
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Looking forward to more comments and the finalized revision.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:56 PM   #194
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Why the switch back to factory throttle settings for I and S? Did a lot of people complain? I liked having the throttle be S# all the time without having to think about turning it on every time I get into the car.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:11 PM   #195
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I only see the notes saying that "I" mode was switched back to stock. Where did you see that S was changed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Why the switch back to factory throttle settings for I and S? Did a lot of people complain? I liked having the throttle be S# all the time without having to think about turning it on every time I get into the car.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:12 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
Why the switch back to factory throttle settings for I and S? Did a lot of people complain? I liked having the throttle be S# all the time without having to think about turning it on every time I get into the car.

Only "I" mode was changed. It makes sense, no one is going to be driving hard in I mode with 8lbs of boost. Also it helps conserve fuel.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:58 PM   #197
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Excellent. I'll download this and get it on the AP for testing. That throttle change is exactly what I wanted for I-mode. Really, I'd like a less aggressive curve for S-mode too, as that's where I do most of my driving, but I suppose I'll have to figure out a way to make that change myself somehow - still no Mac OS X version of the ATR software.

I'm currently running 3.32 ACN91+AEM Stage 1 on a 2008 STi. Mods include AEM intake, Perrin inlet, and GReddy catback.

I've noticed some odd behaviour between 3000-4000 RPM. Say I set the cruise control in 6th gear at 75 MPH, which is 3000 RPM drive speed. On flat roads the fuel trims will be positive - around +8%. The fuel trims will be extremely positive - like +18-20% when the calculated load is high (say, climbing a hill, but not enough to trigger OL). If the calculated load is low, (say, going down the other side of the hill), the fuel trims will be extremely negative (-18-20%).

This doesn't occur up to 3000 RPM, and doesn't occur after 4000 RPM. A range trims are around -4%, B-range trims are around -5%, C-range trims are variable from -10 to +10 depending on how I drive it. I kept it at 65 for a long part of my trip from Vegas back to San Diego yesterday and they're sitting at around -3 (right where I would expect it to be).

There are no intake leaks. I've verified this with smoke and pressure. I even went so far as to replace the turbo inlet hose with the Perrin hose and verify all the connections going to and from the inlet. Right now I'm starting to suspect the tune. Has anyone else noticed the same behaviour?
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Old 10-10-2013, 01:05 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Please note that these are still considered as "beta" but should address the underboosting issues experienced by most users. PLEASE revert to the "normal" WG map if you have been using the HWG version of the v330 or v331 maps!
I apologize if this is a stupid question but...

If you have a car achieving target boost on v330, and 333 (or whatever the final revision will be) is trying to address underboost issues, do you suggest LWG map as a starting point when flashing the new revision?
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:23 AM   #199
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yep 333 is right on. Getting 19.3 psi on 3rd gear. no knocks. i am running AEM stage2 93 map. On 332 i had to use HWG map due to lower boost.

FYI, peeps with knocks, I had bad knocks (-2.8 or up ) with older maps. I changed stock plugs with ngk 1 step colder plugs and all gone. Checked stock plugs gap and they were horrible.
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Old 10-11-2013, 01:50 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzbuzz View Post
yep 333 is right on. Getting 19.3 psi on 3rd gear. no knocks. i am running AEM stage2 93 map. On 332 i had to use HWG map due to lower boost.

FYI, peeps with knocks, I had bad knocks (-2.8 or up ) with older maps. I changed stock plugs with ngk 1 step colder plugs and all gone. Checked stock plugs gap and they were horrible.

v332 and v333 use the same WGDC and Turbo Dynamics values....
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