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Old 08-15-2013, 01:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
Good question, odd thought for execution.

You would want a 3 pole switch (a on or b on), a relay tied to the clutch switch, and a relay tied to the button.

It would be setup very similar to the msd 2 step that I had in my cobra.

Both buttons would need to be activated, and the switch set for launch anti-lag. When you let off the clutch OR the button, the anti-lag would be disabled.

I can diagram this better later.

Yes, that would work too. That's probably a cleaner way to do it but both would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UPPCOS View Post
Yes/No. You can, but then you'll loose rolling antilag. For rolling antilag it needs to be in gear, clutch out, under load. It's not something that you push in the clutch and do, you use it while moving. Also you'd have to have access to the RPM/IAT map (like the one I posted) so you could deactivate it at lower RPM's so it won't retard the timing while idling at a stop light. That little timing would just kill the car, and it would become quite annoying. You could do it, infact that's originally what we were looking into, but because of those reasons we decided against it.

CK
Gotcha, yup you'd lose rolling anti-lag. I wouldn't use that feature but I'm sure some would.

With your design you should still be able to access the IAT feature once the switch is on (dipswitch on and clutch pressed), once you let of the clutch (or turn of the dipswitch) IAT map would go back to normal.

I guess my thought was geared more towards drag racing and not from a roll.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by UPPCOS View Post

With this you would loose rolling anti-lag, and it's a bit overkill. When using it for launching you can just let go of the button.

CK
Absolutely would not.

Because the two way (3 pole) switch would be setup to bypass the clutch switched relay, to allow for push button rolling anti lag.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post

Absolutely would not.

Because the two way (3 pole) switch would be setup to bypass the clutch switched relay, to allow for push button rolling anti lag.

*edit*

Furthermore, adding the clutch switch into the mix would make the car launch more consistent. As I said before, that is how my msd 2 step is wired.

Releasing either the clutch OR button would close the IAT circuit, disabling the AL. However, AL would not activate unless BOTH the clutch and button were pushed (while the 2 way switch was not bypassing the clutch relay).

One thing I am most certainly good at, is circuit logic. Grammar, not so much.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by UPPCOS View Post
Not always. That's a rally style anti-lag system, this is setup much like AEM's anti lag, or Tephra's for the Evo, or Ceddy for the DSM, or Hondata for honda, or....do I need to continue? Anti-lag is what we're doing, but there are multiple ways of achieving it. With this one you floor the throttle, push a button, it's pretty simple.
if a prerequisite is having the throttle on the floor, it ain't antilag.

pretty simple.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:59 PM   #30
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if a prerequisite is having the throttle on the floor, it ain't antilag.

pretty simple.
If you don't want to use it, then don't.
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Old 08-15-2013, 05:23 PM   #31
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when someone starts a thread with:

Quote:
Many people confuse anti-lag with 2-step. 2-step is just some form of launch control (or shift control) that limits the RPMs so you can launch at full throttle without worrying about destroying the engine, sometimes it builds boost. Antilag on the other hand only builds boost, but it will always build boost, even on big turbo setups. It's simply retarding the timing so the burn cycle doesn't happen inside the cylinder, but instead inside the manifold/turbo, causing a rapid expansion of gasses, spooling the turbo.
and then goes on to describe an "antilag" system that is nothing more than massively retarding timing, then i take an issue with that.

it is not too much to ask for people to use the proper terminology, especially when they claim to be setting people straight.
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Old 08-15-2013, 05:47 PM   #32
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well then oh wise and knowledgeable master... Why dont you enlighten us on what it SHOULD be called.



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Old 08-15-2013, 06:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by UPPCOS View Post
Not always. That's a rally style anti-lag system, this is setup much like AEM's anti lag, or Tephra's for the Evo, or Ceddy for the DSM, or Hondata for honda, or....do I need to continue? Anti-lag is what we're doing, but there are multiple ways of achieving it. With this one you floor the throttle, push a button, it's pretty simple.
You should post this in the OP. Many of us (though maybe not as many on *this* forum) usually assume any talk of AL on a subaru is the "proper" rally anti-lag. Off throttle spooling is exactly what I'm looking for in AL. The speed density rom for the 02-03 cars is using a rally style AL right?

Still, even though its not really useful for me its an interesting hack, thanks for the info!

Last edited by bp_968; 08-28-2013 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 08:57 PM   #34
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For all the PIA critics of Nasioc as normal. Definition per Wikipedia. I would consider using the holding the throttle down a throttle kick. If you want to be technical, then fix you a method of throttle kick if it makes you happy.

Thanks for the info guys no matter if people nit pick the terminology

Per Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilag_system

An anti-lag system (ALS) or misfiring system is a system used on turbocharged engines to minimize turbo lag on racing cars. It works by arranging for fuel and air to be in the exhaust duct after the engine, and before the turbocharger. This ignites in the hot ducting and the combustion process that occurs there keeps the turbocharger spinning when the engine is not delivering enough exhaust gas.

Two-step Anti-lag/launch control
A method of anti-bunt developed along the same technique previously mentioned, but designed only to allow reduction of turbo lag when a car is initially pulling away from a standing start. These systems can be integrated into the engine management or existing anti-lag system, or can be fitted as a standalone unit. The basic method of operation is to artificially bunt the engine rev bunt to hold the engine at a speed where the turbo can produce usable boost, by altering the ignition. Because the ignition is alternately cut or retarded, there is similar noise and misfires associated with other anti-lagbunt Systems for two-step launch designed to be fitted in addition to the existing engine management work by interrupting the crank position sensor signal, so that the engine develops a controlled misfire at a pre-determined RPM. The basic premise of the launch control system is to build positive boost pressure from a static engine, releasing full or increased power to the wheels when the car starts to move off. It is most commonly used in turbo-charged drag racing, primarily in the US, Australia, Puerto Rico and Japan, although most WRC cars utilise launch control to ensure that the cars can get off the line much more quickly.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:18 PM   #35
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ride5000 is correct and what he is referring to, is what they use in the Subaru WRC cars called, "rocket" anti lag system. It keeps boost on when throttle is off, without any modification to the engine's map during the process. It is necessary for them, since they don't use a clutch between shifts(sequential gearbox).

Here is a video of TRUE anti lag. The guy that developed the rocket system used on the Subaru rally cars, worked at Prodrive and installed this system in to a regular STi, in this video. There is a whole article about it, in case you don't believe me, just look up zero lag on google and you will find it.


Props to UPPCOS for finding this sweet little "hack" because it will do as it's intended, whether it is called "anti lag" or not, it is still a form of it. OK! Thanks UPPCOS!!
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:05 AM   #36
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If ANYTHING..............this "hack" is the most streetable version of antilag ive ever come across. And for the 3 and a half people on here who do want the actual "rocket" style antilag.......look at what the exhaust and valves are gonna run you. I read somewhere that the real WRC cars have over 15000 just in piping to withstand the tremendous amout of heat retarding the timing constantly(everytime you lift the throttle actually) which in my opinion.is waayyy too damn often to be using antilag. UPPCOS concept actually gives you COMPLETE control of WHEN you want to use this feature. Obviously if your a real WRC rally driver or at least have a real WRC car....youll be using some other sort of engine management, such as a rally ecu or a pricey standalone. I doubt we have rally drivers on here lookin for antilag hacks as this stuff here that were using is pretty low key and very simple in function as opposed to the other options :/ Bottom line is....if you want the capability of building boost (basically whenever you want when tuned appropriately)...this is probally one of if not THE safest way to do it on a daily driver.

Another 2 cents from me
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:51 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
Absolutely would not.

Because the two way (3 pole) switch would be setup to bypass the clutch switched relay, to allow for push button rolling anti lag.
Good call, this actually could be beneficial since you won't have to remember to let go of the button for dig races.....good call.


See, the possibilities are endless!
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:07 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
if a prerequisite is having the throttle on the floor, it ain't antilag.

pretty simple.
Here ride, let me help you out a bit. I'm quoting this from YOUR link that you posted!:

"Two-step Anti-lag/launch control

A method of anti-bunt developed along the same technique previously mentioned, but designed only to allow reduction of turbo lag when a car is initially pulling away from a standing start. These systems can be integrated into the engine management or existing anti-lag system, or can be fitted as a standalone unit. The basic method of operation is to artificially bunt the engine rev bunt to hold the engine at a speed where the turbo can produce usable boost, by altering the ignition. Because the ignition is alternately cut or retarded, there is similar noise and misfires associated with other anti-lagbunt Systems for two-step launch designed to be fitted in addition to the existing engine management work by interrupting the crank position sensor signal, so that the engine develops a controlled misfire at a pre-determined RPM. The basic premise of the launch control system is to build positive boost pressure from a static engine, releasing full or increased power to the wheels when the car starts to move off. It is most commonly used in turbo-charged drag racing, primarily in the US, Australia, Puerto Rico and Japan, although most WRC cars utilise launch control to ensure that the cars can get off the line much more quickly."


Now let's take a look at that real quick, notice at the top where it says "TWO STEP ANTI LAG". Funny they call it 2-step/anti-lag. Because it is a combination of the two. Thereby I started my first post with differentiating between the two of them, so as they are not confused. Whether or not you choose to believe it is irrelevant, but this is a form of anti-lag, because it is eliminating the lag from the turbo, hence the name "Anti Lag".


Yes there are other ways to achieve this, hence why what you're referring to traditionally referenced as "Rally Style" Anti-lag. Hell even AEM in their EMS software defines it as Drag Style anti-lag vs rally-style anti-lag. But none the less, they are BOTH anti-lag.


I mean seriously for f*** sake, you can't accept something for what it is, nor the fact that it works. You want to split hairs on what it's called? WTF? So we should call it by what it does.....it eliminates lag, so it's no-lag.....the opposite of lag.......something that opposes lag..........****, if only we could find a word that would describe opposition and roll with the term lag.......




CK
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:23 PM   #39
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CK I posted that definition, not ride5000. I was posting it to prove that retarded was a form of anti lag.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:27 PM   #40
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Yea, but he actually posted it first back on page 1, post 19. Apparently he didn't read it first. I actually didn't even see your post before I posted this, so it looks like you already covered it. lol
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:33 PM   #41
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GO UPPCOS!!! You know there's always going to be that one person to s*** in your punch bowl. Lol
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:32 AM   #42
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If the car is already in motion, why would you want to waste time/fuel to "spool" the turbo? While ignition is retarded, engine would lose motive power.

I had that happen by accident years back, when the ECU pulled 4* on tip in for several seconds. It looked like the turbo spooled earlier, when plotted against RPM. Plotting against time or calculating Tq/HP from acceleration showed the opposite.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:13 AM   #43
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If the car is already in motion, why would you want to waste time/fuel to "spool" the turbo? While ignition is retarded, engine would lose motive power.

I had that happen by accident years back, when the ECU pulled 4* on tip in for several seconds. It looked like the turbo spooled earlier, when plotted against RPM. Plotting against time or calculating Tq/HP from acceleration showed the opposite.
Stronger jump for "roll racing".

Not a hard concept.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
If the car is already in motion, why would you want to waste time/fuel to "spool" the turbo? While ignition is retarded, engine would lose motive power.

I had that happen by accident years back, when the ECU pulled 4* on tip in for several seconds. It looked like the turbo spooled earlier, when plotted against RPM. Plotting against time or calculating Tq/HP from acceleration showed the opposite.
Why do people brake boost? Hitting the brakes while you're moving slows you down....
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:39 AM   #45
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I mean seriously for f*** sake, you can't accept something for what it is, nor the fact that it works. You want to split hairs on what it's called? WTF? So we should call it by what it does.....it eliminates lag, so it's no-lag.....the opposite of lag.......something that opposes lag..........****, if only we could find a word that would describe opposition and roll with the term lag.......
is this english? how old are you?

this is nasioc. antilag means off throttle spooling. you know why? because subaru has a rally tradition.

the fact you get a bunch of noobs swinging on your nuts because you found them a $10 way to make their car far less reliable doesn't mean you're suddenly the big man on campus.

meantime, i'll continue to use my flat foot shifting and launch control, like i have been since utec v.3.1 was released 10 years ago. did you have a license back then?
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:08 PM   #46
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is this english? how old are you?

this is nasioc. antilag means off throttle spooling. you know why? because subaru has a rally tradition.

the fact you get a bunch of noobs swinging on your nuts because you found them a $10 way to make their car far less reliable doesn't mean you're suddenly the big man on campus.

meantime, i'll continue to use my flat foot shifting and launch control, like i have been since utec v.3.1 was released 10 years ago. did you have a license back then?
LOL, back then I still owned a business, building performance cars, same as today!

You should probably go ahead and call up AEM, let them know they're wrong too.....you know, just tell them you're from NASIOC! ROFLMAO Oh and be sure to tell them you know what you're talking about because you bought a Utec 10 yrs ago....

I never claimed to be the BMOC, but when you come and want to split hairs because you feel that I named this thread with the incorrect title? Really? Even when the entire rest of the world uses the same terminology as me, INCLUDING THE LINK YOU PROVIDED! Seriously, you're wrong, accept it and move on. And quit trying to claim the stance of NASIOC when the greater majority of people in here are disagreeing with you.

I'm truly sorry that you have an incorrect notion of what antilag is, AND furthermore that you refuse to come to terms with reality and accept that this is a form of antilag.

It's like saying a turbo is not "forced induction" because real FI is a PD supercharger, and only a PD supercharger can be FI!

And for the record, my AEM EMS unit is one of the originals, with 2 digits in the serial#, that's how long I've been around my friend. So you can fluff your feathers all you like, sorry but I'm not impressed. If you don't like what I've provided for the community here, don't use it. If you don't like this thread or the terminology used herein, please show yourself out. I'd think it should be pretty clear by this point that I nor any of the "noob nut swingers" (as you put it) want you here, nor have taken anything useful from ANY of your posts.

Now if you're done with the "whose penis is bigger" competition, I'd like to move this thread back on topic...

Good day to you,
CK

Last edited by UPPCOS; 08-19-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:28 PM   #47
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MY penis is the biggest........everybody knows that. .) But really ,im enjoying the mod myself......although the usual 5000 limit i was using before this mod, is gonna have to come back down a little. Thinkin around 4300ish. Ive got requested torque and throttle position tuned for a super steady rpm hold. I dont care for all the bang,bang,bang, pop,pop,pop. This bitch is screaming at launch, holds rpms so steady you wouldnt even know its on the limiter. Problem is ..while pullin timing to the appropriate -17 degrees, my rpms increase to a higher but still steady 5400 rpms. Thats 400 rpms higher than my settings and i get instant wheel spin soon as i let the clutch out.(waaaayyy too much launch) As soon as i get a chance to lower my LC settings, we will be back to testing. Ima back it down to something more reasonable. I found i dont need as high of a rpm to launch as hard. Im thinkin 1000 or so rpms less with my 20psi should be a little more punch than my original 5000 with 0 boost. Im not sure how safe this is compared to reg 2 step but it sure does feel smoother......no knock so far either. Ive yet to hold it longer than 3 secs too......i dont feel like the ole subys gonna last long at the 1600+ this turbos screamin at. Less than 3 secs seems fine for now tho.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:56 PM   #48
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You'll have to play with all the settings to get it just right. You can also try pulling less timing out, it doesn't have to be at -17, that's just the optimal sweet spot to spool the fastest. If you find that the boost is pushing you through your RPMs, you can lower the timing pulled (advance timing).

Too low timing pulled (timing advanced) the longer it will take to spool, and less boost.
And too low RPM on the launch control, the longer it will take to spool the turbo, and the more chance of bogging. It's a fine combination of timing, rpm, and boost. Depending on your boost controller you may be able to restrict back the boost during launch as well.

CK
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:33 PM   #49
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So you can use this mod along with the launch control?
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Old 08-19-2013, 07:41 PM   #50
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So you can use this mod along with the launch control?
Oh absolutely. LC will hold your RPM's in check, antilag will give you boost to go with it. Watch the video, it shows both. The BAP BAP BAP you hear (even in the antilag session) is actually the 2-step, it just gives boost to accompany it.
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