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Old 11-07-2000, 01:09 PM   #1
Bill.B
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Post Rallycross safety

to bring stuff over....

referring to Bud's last post here:

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Foru.../000012-2.html

(sorry the cut and paste didn't work well, so follow the link...)

The Nevada event was an SCCA event, I will not comment on anything about the event as I was not there. I have my own thoughts of how things went/should have went, but will not comment publicly.

The Rally-X courses we (the ARA) will set up will be similar to those at the Auto-x's at Exponent Failure Analyses (the N. Phx Solo races). They will be tight, but not too tight, and technical, but not too technical. You will be able to get a bit of speed, and still slide around cones.

What we will not have: 70 MPH drifts (or 45 MPH drifts for that matter), yumps (the one in Prescott was NOT supposed to be there), dips, burms, deep sand, etc. Basically, if you do the autocrosses in N Phx, it will be like that, just on dirt, with different classes. Don't get me wrong, 70 MPH 4 wheel drifts in an AWD car is an absolute blast (as close to heaven as you can get while breathing), doing it an UNPREPARED car is not, and not only puts you, your car, spectators, sponsors, etc in danger, but also endangers the future of the sport... There are places where you can do a 70 MPH 4 wheel drift within 20 minutes of Phx, just not at ARA events. Rolling, at any speed, in an unprepared car is VERY detrimental to your health.
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Old 11-07-2000, 02:04 PM   #2
#522
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That's cool Bill. The 70+ drifts were done in a huge open lakebed and off the course. The course was fast, maybe 50 or so for some people, but it was long, 7/10 of a mile maybe, and spread out. I figured we'd set up similar to Prescot, minus the jumps. I assume your goal is basically an autocross on dirt. I don't like going over large bumps either in my car and don't want peoples cars to get wrecked. I think that's what keeps people away from the rally-x's, they think it will be nasty like a treeline rally.

ron

Where are these "... places where you can do a 70 MPH 4 wheel drift within 20 minutes of Phx" anyway?
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Old 11-07-2000, 05:04 PM   #3
Red-Imp
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& a fast red car ;)

Thumbs up

Bill,

I completely agree with and support everything you just said and I'm glad to hear you say it. (Even though I kinda' liked the "yumps" and 45 mph drifts. We might have been exagerating the drift speed in Prescott. After all, I wasn't looking at my speedo'. ) However, I do have a couple more questions (for you and the rest of the group).

1. I know the SCCA has insurance protection at these events (tied to signing the waiver). Does this cover only medical and liability or will this cover vehicular damage as well? (Feel free to point me to the right reference material on that one.)

2. Would any of you who decided no to run at Prescott consider runing on a course that was flatter (as Bill described above)?

<font color="#FF0000" size="4"><em><strong>-Red</strong></em></font>
<img src="http://216.242.153.40/MembersList/UserPics/1637/RedDrift.jpg" border="2">

(EFA = Exponent Failure Analysis... I guess I should have known that one. Yet another damn TLA for me to keep track of )
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Old 11-07-2000, 08:28 PM   #4
kastle
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What the heck is a "yump"?
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Old 11-07-2000, 08:59 PM   #5
Eric SS
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swap and N20. gone. : (

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hehe...sounds like a monster out of star wars or something

Eric

P.S. I want a banner!
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Old 11-08-2000, 07:39 AM   #6
Red-Imp
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& a fast red car ;)

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Quote:
Some may not like this, but the rollover was not the tracks fault. I watched several of his runs, and he pushed it hard. The trucks CG was higher than our cars by far and that could have happened anyway, even at a lower speed. My friend had his Tacoma is Prescott and after watching and riding with me said if he drove that track and didn't take it easy there, he could flip real easy. I just think he exceeded the limits of his vehicle. None-the-less, I feel real bad for him, and I hope he doesn't loose the whole truck.

ron
Ron,

I agree that the ultimate responsibility for safety sits with the driver. No event is worth destroying your vehicle or causing injury to yourself or others. I hassled Kastle and Aaron for not running in Prescott, but if they felt it was unsafe or excessively rough on their vehicles I respect that. It takes guts to say "no" in the face of peer pressure and it's hard sometimes to rein-in your enthusiasm. I tested portions of the track progressively on run after run myself (referring to the afore-mentioned "yump" - which I believe is a relative of Yabba the Yump ).

However, that's not exactly the point we're making. I really don't want to try to find fault here. I wasn't there and bad things happen no matter how hard you try to prevent them. That's why you have to do everything in your power when you set one of these events up to try to make it as difficult as possible for somebody to do serious harm.

I think that's the thing we need to be reminded of by this and I think Bill has a good sense of it. This stuff is a lot of fun, but it can turn deadly serious in an instant.

I too, hope the guy in the Tacoma doesn't loose his truck.

<font color="#FF0000" size="4"><em><strong>-Red</strong></em></font>
<img src="http://216.242.153.40/MembersList/UserPics/1637/RedDrift.jpg" border="2">

Eric: My scanner sucks, but if you've got a pic I'll help you make a banner.
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Old 11-08-2000, 07:53 AM   #7
Bill.B
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Kastle- A yump is what some would call a jump, or burm. My guess is it is sweedish for jump... "yumpin yiminee, yah..."

All- I was not implying any fault, as I wasn't there, and people in fast cars will always drive fast. My key point was to the fact that what was done on the lakebed will not be possible at an ARA event. I have seen cars flip (my own team for that fact) going 30MPH... It's all about physics, and I hope to keep things relatively (get it, relative...) flat, slow, and safe.

#522- this is the desert man... WIDE open spaces abound, especially south, and west of Phx.. (HINT HINT WINK WINK)

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Old 11-08-2000, 08:33 AM   #8
#522
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That's pretty much what I was thinking Red, about the rollover thing.

Both times I ran in these events, I had that feeling of pushing my luck with hurting the car, that's why I stopped at 15 runs in prescott, I felt I'd done enough. And it's true bad things happen at any speed, but I know they amplify at higher ones, which is why I completely understand Bills goals in how he wants to set up tracks. Save the high speed stuff for PIR and Firebird. These events are more about car control than top speed.

I can't wait till next years rally-x season. Any other sites you've found, Bill? Oh yeah, if I do go into a dealership and mention sponsoring something like this, what should i tell them Bill? I can't use the word Race because of warranties. I know the SCCA solo2 rulebook cleverly refers to being an exhibition and test of driver skill, not a race.

ron
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Old 11-08-2000, 09:47 AM   #9
kastle
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I still don't know whata Yump is....
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Old 11-08-2000, 10:12 AM   #10
Eric SS
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swap and N20. gone. : (

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hehee..

Eric
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Old 11-08-2000, 10:12 AM   #11
XT6Wagon
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A Yump is a baby jump. You would have to be one sick puppy to get all 4 in the air off of a yump.

I agree that Yumps like the concrete one at Prescott are not exactly happy things. Going one way I was always in danger of eating the fence if I got a little to agressive, and the other way seems to have chewed up one of my tires. I would say it hosed my alignment, but if it did it took hitting a tread section from a Semi to finish it off.

The dirt one though was great. It made you pause if you got off "line" in the first time period, and the later runs it would "upset" the car just enough to make the long courner a entertaining one.

One thing.....
Is it possible to avoid the DEEP sand next time as Some of us were driving lowered family sedans and almost got stuck. Oh and the Neon guys kept eating tires in it too.
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Old 11-08-2000, 10:13 AM   #12
Bill.B
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Kastle, anything that would cause you to catch air with any real speed.

edit- guess I got beat to the answer....

[This message has been edited by Bill.B (edited November 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bill.B (edited November 08, 2000).]
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Old 11-08-2000, 10:20 AM   #13
Bill.B
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XT- that was the final event we will have at that venue. They are building a new arena (you saw it if you went to the spectator stage, on the right side) and it should all be packed like the left side of this years track. All the lots i am looking at will be packed dirt as well. Soft stuff also causes rolls...
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Old 11-08-2000, 06:36 PM   #14
Red-Imp
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& a fast red car ;)

Wink

Oh I don't know... a little bit of soft stuff in the right places makes it more challenging. In fact, I might even vote for a little mud. You know, just to keep SOME PEOPLE with high HP FWD cars from keeping up with those of us who drive light AWD cars.



I think it could be done safely if the course were laid out carefuly. You could put a soft or muddy section just after a tight hairpin (so that the cars would be slowed down) and at the beginning of a long straight (so that you'd have to accelerate through and out of the soft stuff). That way, there'd be little chance of anyone rolling and those who could negotiate the soft stuff would bet lower times.

Just a thought

<font color="#FF0000" size="4"><em><strong>-Red</strong></em></font>
<img src="http://216.242.153.40/MembersList/UserPics/1637/RedDrift.jpg" border="2">
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Old 11-09-2000, 12:16 AM   #15
XT6Wagon
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I know, I just wanted to voice my beef about gettign 3rd on the FTD list because of continualy getting near stuck while SOME PEOPLE with a light AWD car just float over...

Oh and so far I have found many places where one COULD rallyX if they didn't mind it being sand and gravel. Seeing how the entire southern 1/2 of NM is either rock or sand I am not too hopefull at this time.
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