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Old 09-19-2013, 08:29 PM   #1
Bad Noodle
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Default Tip-in : Lean Blip --> Rich

When I stab the throttle while driving, I seeing a flash of lean on the wideband then it goes rich . I added tip-in and that lessened the initial lean blip but richened up the decaying tipin to the point that the car stumbled.

My guess is that the injector latency is off and that's what causing the initial lean blip.

I'm running light blue modded injectors but using the stock values for dark blue injectors. I'm doing this because it seemed to work well initially.

Do you guys think latency is my problem or should I be looking elsewhere?

For reference:
I'm using:
3.13 1.81 1.22 0.89 0.75

Cobb Suggests
2.79 1.49 0.98 0.68 0.38
Would too much latency cause this behavior?
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:41 AM   #2
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I checked the injectors with the RR injector tab this morning. The latency I'm using seemed pretty good. The tab suggested a change of -0.03, which in my opinion is in the noise.

However it did suggest that I change my scaling from 785 to 835... which was a surprise.

Originally I tuned the car with a set of poop headers that leaked like crazy. So my fueling is off now that I have a good set.

But my maf is good up to 2.5V according , the MRP comp table is zeroed out for now as I want to get everything in line first. The tip-in table, I took the stock values and multiplied by 550/785 to get the one I'm using now.
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:51 PM   #3
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Latency is what causes that usually, lean initial = too little latency. However you do seem to be running quite a bit of latency. But with a set of modded ones, that slight lean blip on tip in is the least of your worries.
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Old 09-20-2013, 03:05 PM   #4
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I had horrible tip in probs after my modded injector install (04STi yellow tops)


I finally got scaling and latencies what i call perfect. Learning view A is always within 2% and B,C and D show just .50 here and there. My injector flow sheets showed a 816,818,830,832 cc injectors. Wound up ending up with scaling of 770 and dropped latencies about .07 each cell......works like a charm.
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Old 09-20-2013, 03:11 PM   #5
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That's the wrong latency for those injectors. And the scalar your using is too low. I never trust the RR injector tab and typically only rely on the MAF tab/experience.

Steve @ Pullz-on Tuning
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Old 09-20-2013, 03:47 PM   #6
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Thanks for the info. When I swapped headers, I just updated the maf scaling, didn't touch the injectors. But it looks like I should. I'll try increasing the flow rate, decreasing the latency and see what happens with tipin. Then will probably have to redo maf. Should I just use the Cobb values for light blues or do I need to mult by 0.64 due to different units used for latency for the values published by Cobb?

Now that I think about it, I also found a leak in my Perrin fuel rails. That probably messed my values when I did this originally
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:13 PM   #7
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So tired new latencys today. Set them to the suggested values from cobb and multiplied them by .64 which converted them to RR values.

I also changed the scaling to 840cc

Result: running super lean as expected. Maxed out CL correction

So I multiplied my MAF by 1.25

Result: Still running lean, but in the 16s on start up before the maf is used. From this I concluded that 840cc is too much

Changed scaling to 800cc

Result, it's drivable. MAF needs a little work, but the initial lean spike is gone. Tip-in probably needs to be reduces as well. But I'll work with this for a while and report back.
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:41 PM   #8
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Still too much scaling man......your ecu obviously is thinking you have a huge injector (800cc)...and isn't injecting enough fuel. Stock scaling vs actual flow isn't perfect. My rom is 5.5% off. (Stock scaling is 503...actual flow is 530is cc). So with me knowing actual flow and the percentage the rom is off....I can figure 770cc scaling vs actual flow(averaged because of my imperfectly patched injectors..816,818,830,832cc) of 808cc. I mustve flashed 20 times until my corrections weren't maxed at -25. Tell the ecu what the flow is with its own logic, just compensate the actual diff and redo the scaling. If you do it right.....after the 10 min or so idle relearn(just let it sit and idle...don't fuk with the throttle, for about 10 mins)...corrections will be damn near perfect. If you've gotta screw with the maf more than .5volts...its not right yet.....get the global fueling right first. Just reflash with lower scaling a few times and watch the changes. May have to feather latencies but wont be much.
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:59 PM   #9
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I understand what you're saying, but what you're saying assumes your maf is spot on. My maf was tuned with crap latencies and scaling and therefore the maf scaling compensated for the deficiencies in those values. So I can't really count on my maf to set the injectors. In a situation like this, the cobb tuning guide suggests you put in the advertised flow rate of the injector and the maf tuning will correct for the incorrect scalar.

To do it "right" I should what you're saying with a stock intake. But I can't because I'm running a rotated kit so I need to do the next best thing.

I'll try adding a little more scaling like you're suggesting. Gonna try 810, should make them spot on. If I use your suggested 5.5 correction, it would put me back to 840, which was too much.
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Old 09-21-2013, 12:29 AM   #10
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You don't need to "convert" Cobb latency to use with RomRaider/ecuflash. That was updated at least a couple of years ago.
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
You don't need to "convert" Cobb latency to use with RomRaider/ecuflash. That was updated at least a couple of years ago.
Good to know. I got those values from their old database (subaur spread sheet 1.5). when I checked their most up to data spreadsheet (2.xx), I didn't see values for light blues. In fact, they took out a lot of the injector data, which was strange. They only have value for 06-13 wrx and FIC injectors in the new one.

The values in 2.xx for dark blues matched what RR has while the values listed in 1.5 needed to be mult by the .64

For reference, these are the values in there now:

[Table2D]
6.50 9.00 11.50 14.00 16.50
1.79 0.95 0.63 0.44 0.24

Last edited by Bad Noodle; 09-21-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:08 PM   #12
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Today I used the following:

Scalar
810

Latency
[Table2D]
6.50 9.00 11.50 14.00 16.50
1.79 0.95 0.63 0.44 0.24

And I'm not sure this is correct, at times, the car would run in the 16s when on light throttle. It felt a little more choppy, check out the maf tab:



The spread is awful and you can really feel it. I'm thinking about going back to the values I started out with.

Anything else to try? Thoughts?
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:25 PM   #13
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If your injectors are ~800cc then start with ~0.8ms at 14V
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
If your injectors are ~800cc then start with ~0.8ms at 14V
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. Any toughs on scalar? I've heard between 770 and 840 and i'm not sure which way to go with it.

I'm leaning more towards 770. Using that scalar would get me closer to the theoretical values for the maf. (stock * 1.34, 65.8mm->76.2mm intake)
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:58 PM   #15
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Dude's waaaaay better today:

scalar 810
latency 0.9 at 14v

Felt much much smoother, warm start was better, much less hesitation on tip in.

I still get a slight blip but it goes to 15.5 or less. Maf tab looks much better as well:



So now the hard part. Do I leave it alone or teeak a little more. I was thinking of going up to 825 for scaling and add a tad more latency (like 0.02) What do you guys think?
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:29 PM   #16
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Also tried

scalar 830
latency 0.94 at 14v

I couldn't tell the difference between that and

scalar 810
latency 0.9 at 14v


So I set it at 820 and 0.92 at 14v. I think that should be good.

Tip-in is seems pretty good. Stays right around 14.5 during throttle stabs. So it looks like it's getting there. Just need to drive it more, do the maf, then do the MRP table
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dux10 View Post
That's the wrong latency for those injectors. And the scalar your using is too low. I never trust the RR injector tab and typically only rely on the MAF tab/experience.

Steve @ Pullz-on Tuning
Agree... RR injector tab never works right.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Agree... RR injector tab never works right.
+1 Agreed
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:32 PM   #19
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i found best results are in the latency values, keep the scalar but tweak the latency. more latency with less voltage. less latency with more voltage.
I'm running 650cc, scaled at 649.65.
latency is
6.5 9.0 11.5 14.0 16.5
2.88 1.60 1.07 0.78 0.48

the highest percentage is in 10-20 g/s section and is 1.37%
took me a while, but all under 2%
Little changes makes all the difference.
And yes the RR injector just helps you ball park it. then fine tune it. it just takes time.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:05 PM   #20
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Fixed

Solved this bit of hesitation by lowering the Tip-In min IPW value. Stock value was set to 1.12. I dropped it to 0.7, which worked well for me.

Bigger injectors need to lower this value because IPWs are shorter for the same amount of fuel. So Tip-In was not being activated when it needed to be because the IPW was not above the min value.

This caused an initial lean condition that was making the car hesitate.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:03 PM   #21
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good to hear!
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