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Old 10-16-2013, 04:56 PM   #1
Spyder01
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Default Ohlins DFV to AST 4150?

I am looking at this option right now. I've had Ohlins for the past few years and they're great even though winter. Nothing seize before and this coilover is really living up to its name.

BUT, with a lot of use, I need to change the spherical bearing quite often and finding parts becomes an issue here in Canada. Any emails to Ohlins, they no longer reply, and calling them is like maybe this coilover is their entry level, they don't seem like they want to help.

So I'm looking at the AST4150 right now, the design seem to be similar but between the two, am I downgrading here? Seems like it is easier to find service and parts for this coilover and Vorshlag sounds like a very good name. The vorshlag top mount have a lot of details saying its made for rougher roads, etc... but I know someone that killed the bearing on it within a month as well.

So If I can sell the ohlins dfv for say $1500(is this a ok price?) I will need to add maybe another $1500 to get a set of AST with vorshlag camber plate. Is this a good option?
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:16 PM   #2
jaboyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder01 View Post
I am looking at this option right now. I've had Ohlins for the past few years and they're great even though winter. Nothing seize before and this coilover is really living up to its name.

BUT, with a lot of use, I need to change the spherical bearing quite often and finding parts becomes an issue here in Canada. Any emails to Ohlins, they no longer reply, and calling them is like maybe this coilover is their entry level, they don't seem like they want to help.

So I'm looking at the AST4150 right now, the design seem to be similar but between the two, am I downgrading here? Seems like it is easier to find service and parts for this coilover and Vorshlag sounds like a very good name. The vorshlag top mount have a lot of details saying its made for rougher roads, etc... but I know someone that killed the bearing on it within a month as well.

So If I can sell the ohlins dfv for say $1500(is this a ok price?) I will need to add maybe another $1500 to get a set of AST with vorshlag camber plate. Is this a good option?
__________________________________________________ ________________
I've been looking at the same 2 units for my 2011 STI. The AST 4150 is rated well, and TIC did a tweaked version of the 4100 before it was discontinued that was even better (valving improvements) but do not have there modified 4150 yet.

How long ago did you get the Ohlins? I assume they are the R&T units, so what type of issues or support did you need? Did you run the stock spring rates (500frt/400rr) and how do you like them? Do you track them or just DD?

I don't see how changing coil-over brands will address your spherical bearings issues...and yes the Vorshlag units are good, so is GTworx.

When I priced the 2 units (Ohlins vs AST 4150) ready to install they were within $250 of each other bc AST require tender springs and collars. The nice thing about the AST is that you can spec your springs upfront but Ohlins come with pre-set spring rates...so it is even a better deal. Have you checked on 4150 availability?

Another option is the AST 5100 (2-way) that is about the same price as Ohlins, but you can spec your own spring rates and has a very similar design. These are proven units and on a number of Subaru.

One other set I looked at is Motion Control Suspension (MCS) which is the the original Moton group located near Atlanta, GA. They have a new 1-way coil-over for Subaru. It is a stunning unit with exceptional build quality...priced about the same as Ohlins ready to install.

How many miles do you have on your Ohlins? Have they ever been rebuilt? How long ago? Those 2 items will affect the pricing and what you can get. In general good used coil-overs are in the area of 50% of original costs but vary widely depending on brand and desirability.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:36 PM   #3
Spyder01
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I've had the ohlins for 2ish years. It was the last of the DFV version. But the functions and look is the exact same as the Road and Track, they just renamed it the year after. The parts catalog is the same. Honestly, its held up much better than I expected, I drive a lot for work and I don't raise this car for winter. So even after all the salt and sand, this coilover had nothing seize, all the damper adjustments are still easily adjusted even in the middle of winter. So can't really ask for more.

The problem is I recently bent one of the top camber plate and I need to get it replaced. The damper itself is perfectly fine and still functioning properly. I"m talking to someone in the UK that has a connection with Ohlins sweden. So really, I'm looking for a coilover with more support, one that I can just make a phone call or shoot a email and the other end will know what I need and send the part right away instead of waiting a few weeks since driving the car so much, can't really have much down time on the car.


I ran it with the stock 9k 7k spec, daily driver with maybe 2 or 3 lapping days in the summer. They're just like how people have said, it is stiff, but the way it takes up bumps is much better than anything else. It doesn't have that bounce after a bump, but it takes the bump more harsh than stock for sure. I found the front maybe too stiff as all the other brands run 8k 8k, I'd like to try that, or even 7k 7k. And changing the springs would cost $ already, I may as well look at other brand just to give it a try.

The online community seem to love AST as a daily driver coilover, but I really want to hear more real life feedbacks. I've read everyone said all kinds of whiteline bushings were good too and end up buying a bunch and taking most off because either they don't last more than a few months, or the cons were more than the pros.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:51 PM   #4
Spyder01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaboyd View Post
__________________________________________________ ________________
I've been looking at the same 2 units for my 2011 STI. The AST 4150 is rated well, and TIC did a tweaked version of the 4100 before it was discontinued that was even better (valving improvements) but do not have there modified 4150 yet.

How long ago did you get the Ohlins? I assume they are the R&T units, so what type of issues or support did you need? Did you run the stock spring rates (500frt/400rr) and how do you like them? Do you track them or just DD?

I don't see how changing coil-over brands will address your spherical bearings issues...and yes the Vorshlag units are good, so is GTworx.

When I priced the 2 units (Ohlins vs AST 4150) ready to install they were within $250 of each other bc AST require tender springs and collars. The nice thing about the AST is that you can spec your springs upfront but Ohlins come with pre-set spring rates...so it is even a better deal. Have you checked on 4150 availability?

Another option is the AST 5100 (2-way) that is about the same price as Ohlins, but you can spec your own spring rates and has a very similar design. These are proven units and on a number of Subaru.

One other set I looked at is Motion Control Suspension (MCS) which is the the original Moton group located near Atlanta, GA. They have a new 1-way coil-over for Subaru. It is a stunning unit with exceptional build quality...priced about the same as Ohlins ready to install.

How many miles do you have on your Ohlins? Have they ever been rebuilt? How long ago? Those 2 items will affect the pricing and what you can get. In general good used coil-overs are in the area of 50% of original costs but vary widely depending on brand and desirability.

The motons, are you talking about the TT1?? I can't find any info on it for the Subaru STI... there are some for the BRZ and E36. Do you have a link? They're the same as the AST4150?? since they're the same company? lol
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder01 View Post
The motons, are you talking about the TT1?? I can't find any info on it for the Subaru STI... there are some for the BRZ and E36. Do you have a link? They're the same as the AST4150?? since they're the same company? lol
Here's a link to their press release or go to Vorshlag Motorsports and talk with Jason 972 422 7170. I got a quote on these and it was right around $3600 complete w/swift springs + tenders/collars and camber plates.

http://www.motioncontrolsuspension.com/2012/12?cat=1
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder01 View Post
I've had the ohlins for 2ish years. It was the last of the DFV version. But the functions and look is the exact same as the Road and Track, they just renamed it the year after. The parts catalog is the same. Honestly, its held up much better than I expected, I drive a lot for work and I don't raise this car for winter. So even after all the salt and sand, this coilover had nothing seize, all the damper adjustments are still easily adjusted even in the middle of winter. So can't really ask for more.

The problem is I recently bent one of the top camber plate and I need to get it replaced. The damper itself is perfectly fine and still functioning properly. I"m talking to someone in the UK that has a connection with Ohlins sweden. So really, I'm looking for a coilover with more support, one that I can just make a phone call or shoot a email and the other end will know what I need and send the part right away instead of waiting a few weeks since driving the car so much, can't really have much down time on the car.

I ran it with the stock 9k 7k spec, daily driver with maybe 2 or 3 lapping days in the summer. They're just like how people have said, it is stiff, but the way it takes up bumps is much better than anything else. It doesn't have that bounce after a bump, but it takes the bump more harsh than stock for sure. I found the front maybe too stiff as all the other brands run 8k 8k, I'd like to try that, or even 7k 7k. And changing the springs would cost $ already, I may as well look at other brand just to give it a try.

The online community seem to love AST as a daily driver coilover, but I really want to hear more real life feedbacks. I've read everyone said all kinds of whiteline bushings were good too and end up buying a bunch and taking most off because either they don't last more than a few months, or the cons were more than the pros.
I read another thread that also had the Ohlins camber plate actually bend. Regarding tech support, have you spoken with Jeff (tech) at Ohlins America (Hendersonville, NC)? If not give him a call (see their website for phone #).

I have heard 2 comments on AST, for the street most people feel that a 450# frt/500# rr works well, but for more aggressive or autox setups 500/550 or even 550/600 are widely used. I've also heard that under race conditions they work well but some people experienced leaking in extreme race setups...never heard of issues for DD.

The old TIC spec'd units (SST) give a better ride for DD than the 4150 but not available right now.

I agree on bushing recommendations. I found that some of the bushings were just too much (NVH) for me as a DD. Tightened up the car but traded-off civility. One person's great setup is another person's "over the top".

Thx for feedback on your Ohlins experience.

Last edited by jaboyd; 10-18-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:05 PM   #7
jaboyd
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Default ohlins

You mentioned that you bent a camber plate...how did that happen? Did you hit a huge pot hole?

Did you adjust the Ohlins very frequently or were they basically set and forget, except for track days?
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:57 PM   #8
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Why not just replace the tophats with units that are more robust? Would seem to fix your issues.

Beyond that the 4150's are pretty good, but the valving leaves a bit to be desired at times depending on driving conditions and use. The JRZ RS1's is the majority of what we have been selling lately and have been incredibly pleased with the outright handling potential and smooth daily drivability. We just did another set yesterday for a 335xi that felt almost like stock ride quality at full soft which is saying something for a BMW, yet when stiffened was outright nimble (also saying something for a new BMW).

Just my $.02. Can't got wrong with any of them mentioned as they are all good coilovers.

Let me know if you have any specific questions or want to discuss options.

Tony
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:21 PM   #9
jaboyd
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Tony, What is your opinion on the 5100 vs the 4150? Do you rate the Ohlins R&T and AST 5100 about the same? What's different?

Noticed the Ohlins come with a 500/400# set up which seems odd compared to most companies that recommend same spring rates frt/rr or 50 to 100# more rear spring???
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:02 PM   #10
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I used to have the Ohlins R&T setup and liked it, but feel that the 5100 is a bit more performance oriented.

That is a bit strange spring rate wise. I like a higher rear spring rate on the newer cars.

Tony
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:32 PM   #11
jaboyd
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I noticed this trend of lower spring rates on the rear from most of the European and mono tube suppliers (KW, Ohlins, MSC, Moton, etc). They all seem to recommend spring rates that have this front bias. Even AST tends to go with equal front and rear setups for their lowest level recommended spring rates...could simply be a safety thing.

I've spoken with Ohlins USA and they said the R&T has a large valving window capable of handling plus or minus 30% on the spring rates so changing the spring rate +50 or 100#s is not an issue (other than adding expense). Asked why they sell this spring rate combo, they defer to the "that's what the engineers in Sweden spec'd". They also said no issue going to 500# front and rear and said many owners run 500/600 or 550/650 for the aggressive auto-x drivers. Evidently Ohlins USA is rethinking about selling these as a "kit" and talking with Sweden to allow users to spec/buy the springs they want. Remember these are coming from Europe where everything automotive is regulated and approved...so I'm thinking that this conservative setup is more of a compliance situation and NOT necessarily the optimal performance.

Last edited by jaboyd; 10-18-2013 at 03:39 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:11 PM   #12
Spyder01
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Well I'm thinking if I need to change the springs and then buy a new set of camber plates, with labour and everything it'd be around $1k already. So if I can sell the current setup for $1500, it'd be a chance to try something new and not having to worry about rebuild which I think they need sometime even though they feel the same as brand new still.

I've been looking up the MCS TT1, i've seen a few reviews on bmw and they seem to be amazing. AST, I've found and heard stories from tuners and retailers about them leaking and may not be built as good as the ohlins. The MCS would be the highest $ point i'm willing to try without being able to test the coilover on a car because the higher end suspensions, they maybe famous in the racing world, but 365days daily driving along with winter snow and salt, might not be so good.



The ohlins I feel the front 9k to be too stiff for daily driving and I end up having to put back the stock front swaybar and set the rear bar to full stiff to get the feel i want. I've always just set it and left it, no need to play around with the settings


The camber plate was bent going into a corner too fast and understeering out off the track into a hole in the grass. So the suspension was compressed already and then going into the hole bent it. We removed it for inspection afterwards and I'm actually surprise the shock itself is still working normally with no damage other than the camber plate
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:12 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Why not just replace the tophats with units that are more robust? Would seem to fix your issues.

Beyond that the 4150's are pretty good, but the valving leaves a bit to be desired at times depending on driving conditions and use. The JRZ RS1's is the majority of what we have been selling lately and have been incredibly pleased with the outright handling potential and smooth daily drivability. We just did another set yesterday for a 335xi that felt almost like stock ride quality at full soft which is saying something for a BMW, yet when stiffened was outright nimble (also saying something for a new BMW).

Just my $.02. Can't got wrong with any of them mentioned as they are all good coilovers.


Let me know if you have any specific questions or want to discuss options.

Tony

What other top mount options are there that would fit the ohlins dfv??
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:44 PM   #14
jaboyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder01 View Post
Well I'm thinking if I need to change the springs and then buy a new set of camber plates, with labour and everything it'd be around $1k already. So if I can sell the current setup for $1500, it'd be a chance to try something new and not having to worry about rebuild which I think they need sometime even though they feel the same as brand new still.

I've been looking up the MCS TT1, i've seen a few reviews on bmw and they seem to be amazing. AST, I've found and heard stories from tuners and retailers about them leaking and may not be built as good as the ohlins. The MCS would be the highest $ point i'm willing to try without being able to test the coilover on a car because the higher end suspensions, they maybe famous in the racing world, but 365days daily driving along with winter snow and salt, might not be so good.

The ohlins I feel the front 9k to be too stiff for daily driving and I end up having to put back the stock front swaybar and set the rear bar to full stiff to get the feel i want. I've always just set it and left it, no need to play around with the settings

The camber plate was bent going into a corner too fast and understeering out off the track into a hole in the grass. So the suspension was compressed already and then going into the hole bent it. We removed it for inspection afterwards and I'm actually surprise the shock itself is still working normally with no damage other than the camber plate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've read the same comments about the Ohlins stock spring rates, some people suggest reversing them (400 front/500 rear) which is a more common rear bias or going 450 front and keeping rear at 400 for the street.

I know the Mini America Continental Racing Series guys claimed that the ASTs did not hold up as well as Motons in racing applications...for what its worth.

I had Moton Clubsports on my GD and absolutely loved them...$$$$$! The new MCS units are claimed to be improved over the Motons, w/better seals and longer life btw rebuilds. They also tend to recommend higher front spring rates than rear like Ohlins, for the street anyway.

If you're looking for the camber plate match, contact Myles at Racecomp Engineering. They sell Ohlins and carry camber plates as well. Try Vashalg for MCS info and fitment.

Last edited by jaboyd; 10-18-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:40 AM   #15
2xtreme
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So I realize the subject is on the GR chassis but on my GD chassis I can not say much good about the AST 4150 for the street. The internal gas pressure is extremely high and the nose force is causing the car to bounce over every ripple in the road. They do however seem to work very well when pushing them in the corners and in breaking but you can not drive them on the freeway for very long. I have tried every spring rate from 9k to 6k in the front and 7k to 5k in the rear with nothing really solving the issue.

I'm not sure if the 4150 in the GR configuration will show the same issues because the rears are not struts and may be less sensitive to the high gas pressure. Looking at the JRZ or KW/Tarmac II as a better application.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:25 AM   #16
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I know the Ohlins DFV. But I am not familiar with the AST series of shocks.

2xtreme. I don't think the nitrogen charge is fully understood by you.
For most applications a difference in nitrogen pressure would not be noticed. The difference from a typical rally style (inverted) strut guided by bushes to a standard damper is much more noticeable.
Being an inverted strut or standard damper makes no difference to it's sensitivity to the nitrogen pressure. Atleast not when looking at raw data.

You are partially correct in saying that the nose force is causing the car to bounce. But probably not in the way you are thinking.
Your complaint is typical of people who want to daily drive a(n) (relatively) aggressively valved damper.
My advice would be to have the Ohlin DFV dampers revalved. Ohlins are known to be preloaded very aggressively. Try lowering the preload and moving the nose down to a lower speed.

Simple answer: You need softer low speed valving at specific velocities.

Blitzcrank.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:33 AM   #17
jaboyd
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Mono tubes with high nitrogen charges can have "stiction" at the intial start of the stroke, but as per previous comment its more likely to be aggressive valving or improper front to rear valve bias. If you have too much front bias the back end will magnify the bump, especially at lower speeds. I ran 8k/6.5k springs on my 05 GD STI (Moton Club Sports) and had good perf/handling as well as a good ride (a little harshness on low spd sharp bumps running 140 psi canister pressures). I'd call Geoff at CYNGUS perf or Vorschlag and ask them, they're both a great help on these kind of issues.
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