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Old 10-19-2013, 08:13 PM   #1
AkumaMotorsports
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Default AkumaMotorsports Dyno Comparison Akuma/Shop-X

Event: Dyno Comparison

Reference:

Comparison #1 - 2006 STI
Comparison #2 - 2011 WRX

Background / Information:

I would like to start this off by saying we are not trying to put down any shop in the tri-state area. This is not an attack in any way shape or form, not our style.


We wanted to take the time and post 2 dyno plots from 2 completely different vehicles that came to the shop recently. At times Akuma has come under strict scrutiny for recent dyno tune results. This is due to the low reading nature of our Mustang dyno. We consider the chassis dyno a tuning tool. We also realize that from a "Marketing" standpoint, dyno numbers carry heavy weight in the virtual community

Comparison #1

We had a 2006 STI come into the shop making 281 WHP, 326 WTQ a couple days prior on a Mustang Dyno (locally). The client was not happy with the state of the tune, power, or drivability (not our words). We took the vehicle straight to the shop dyno for a baseline. NO CHANGES were made at this time, just a pull was made

Results on our dyno were 242 WHP / 280 WTQ "as is". As you can see the results are very different from what the client experienced two days earlier. This variation is consistent when comparing Akuma numbers versus dyno "x" in the community. After evaluating the numbers this is a clear 15% differential between two dynos made by the same manufacturer. To further illustrate this point, a 500 WHP tune at Akuma would yield 575 WHP at shop "X".


Dyno plot shop "X"

Dyno Plot Akuma Vs. Shop "X"

Note: We did retune with this vehicle and results are in the max column #2, and are quite staggering. This plot is a pure Apples to Apples RETUNE. The retune took advantage of proper cam phasing, fuel tuning and spark table optimization...and lower boost. These changes yield a car with better performance and reliability. The transient response is greatly improved and the power under the curve dramatically extended.


Comparison #2

Next we had a very clean and well prepared 2011 WRX. This vehicle was tuned at a different shop "Y" mid-august making 480 WHP / 495+ WTQ

]


Once again we loaded the vehicle onto our Mustang dyno, not changing anything in the tune and performed a pull. This pull resulted in 402 WHP / 418 WTQ. Very nice numbers and a stout tune for our dyno, but short of what was recorded at shop "Y".

Akuma Dyno Pull - Comparison #2


Again, this variation is consistent (as in comparison #1) when comparing Akuma numbers versus dyno "Y". After evaluating the numbers this is a clear 17% differential between the two dynos made by the same manufacturer.


You would expect to see this variance when comparing a Mustang versus "Brand-X" (two different dyno manufacturers), but not this high of a variance within the same manufacturer.

Again, all we are doing is providing data to the virtual comunity. We are not saying these vehicles had bad tunes or that shop “X,Y” is full of it. We are however providing data to the forum members so you can draw your own conclusions.

Akuma Motorsports is going to continue to update this thread and study the dyno differences within our local area. We would like to invite anyone with a 500 WHP car to come to the shop and we will free of charge perform some pulls and provide you with the dyno plot. You must have the shops plot where you originally performed the dyno tune (we do not need the name, nor the information on top of the graph). We will need the type of dyno, weather conditions etc.


I also want to personally thank everyone that supported us to make this happen.

-Dave
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Last edited by AkumaMotorsports; 10-20-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:24 PM   #2
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Why do you show low numbers when comparing against another shop's tune but have normal/high results on all of the stock turbo cars you tune in house (typically just under 300WHP)?

Stock turbo, pump gas setups:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2492468 - 289 / 315
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2546347 - 293 / 293
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2508769 - 289 / 334
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2453521 - 287 / 328
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2465274 - 282 / 289
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2453573 - 282 / 288
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2407568 - 312 / 339

Are the settings on the dyno being changed after the tune is being performed? Even if that is not the case, a 15-17% deviation from other Mustang dynos seems like yours is calibrated or set up incorrectly.
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:06 PM   #3
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Xluben,

Sticking to the plots in this thread, nothing was changed on the comparisons we did absolutely nothing before nor after. The vehicle owners were there at the time we made the pulls, as well as myself.

No setting were changed after the tune on the 2006 and the 2011 were just pulls (no tune). I was just merely trying to compare the two before and after tunes showing the numerical differences.

In reference to the dyno calibration, John performs all the calibrations and I do not believe he is setting them up incorrectly.

-Dave
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:19 PM   #4
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Is this implying that the other shop has their Mustang dyno set up or calibrated incorrectly?

I would be interested to see if you continue these comparisons against more different dyno's.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:51 PM   #5
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Our dyno is set up correctly and I do not manipulate the numbers to make our tunes 'look' better. I do not have to manipulate the dyno numbers to make my calibration a superior product either. The point here is we do not change the settings. I do not change the roller weights/parasitic multipliers/or weather station numbers to make other shops look bad. In fact I RARELY post up other tuners work because it is not professional to do so.

You and a few of your other buddies like to use Akuma as springboard to make you, your tunes or numbers look better or prove some point....or for whaever personal vendetta you have. Any chance you get, you like o jump in an take shots at me or my company. I have sat back and let things go, but this is enough. You have this air of superiority, and it is consistently at my expense. You are basically calling me a liar in this thread, and I do not appreciate it at all.

I have offered 'tuners' to bring their cars down and run them on our dyno 'free of charge'. No one has taken the offer. I am not trying to come across as arrogant. the issue is, the Customer Suffers here. The customer should come first and be able to tell what real numbers are so they can plan their builds appropriately. It is not fair to sell a 18G turbo to a guy and tell him how it will make 500HP because he saw it on some Virtual Dyno tuners posting.

The fact is, most Mustang dyno owners are setting the parasitic multiplier to 2.0 or more. This inflates numbers and make average or below average tunes appear to make above average power. It makes a Mustang read like a Dynojet.

Fact is this Dom 1.5XTR tune(case 2) did not make near 500HP/TQ with the mods. It is not mathematically possible at that given boost . There is no VooDoo here. The numbers are the numbers. I took that car, with the owner present, and put it on the dyno with his 'power' map and it performed nicely....just not 500HP nice. He watched EVERYTHING from the minute I powered on the dyno PC, thru the run. I anticipated someone would question the validity of these tests. If the owner wants to comment on his issues with that shop, that is his business, that is NOT the point of tis thread. This is purely a numbers thread.

A dyno is a Tuning Tool. period. It can read in fuzzy bunnies for all I care. The problem is people read what the 'gurus' post and think it is gospel. It is not. The dyno has become a marketing tool, and another way to measure the size of a persons.....talent. This is laughable.

You don't have to like me or Akuma, but you can not question the validity of these 2 tests. In fact you are friendly with one of the car owners. Let them chime in. They will back up Akuma here and show we did everything legitimately and they watched the entire process.

John
AKUMA Motorsports LLC

[quote=xluben;40799732]Why do you show low numbers when comparing against another shop's tune but have normal/high results on all of the stock turbo cars you tune in house (typically just under 300WHP)?
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:38 AM   #6
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Instead of spending so much time year after year defending your low reading dyno numbers which read lower than everybody else's, why don't you just recalibrate it to read in line with most others? Every time I read an Akuma graph thread there is some disclaimer about how low reading it is.

Like it or not, many customers who either don't know any better or want to brag about their cars numbers will potentially go elsewhere because of it. I'm not saying it's right, just sayin it's probably happening. You could be losing business because of your low reading (in comparison to other shops) dyno.
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:36 AM   #7
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^^ You do have a good point!
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:00 AM   #8
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:15 AM   #9
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If it is the same model dyno being compared here then one of the dynos has numbers that are "wrong". I think you agree with this. In this thread you are basically saying another shop is lying about their numbers. You should expect to have the details analyzed in a critical manner

You say numbers are just numbers and you only cared about gains but I then see every Akuma post defending a low dyno and even see threads like this this that are specifically about comparing dyno numbers!

If you really cared about putting this to bed you would just take a few cars you tuned and have them dyno'd at other shops. Calling out other shops for not coming to you, when you could do the same thing you're proposing is quite hypocritical.
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:33 AM   #10
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Fcmaniac / wuuusaa,

That is exactly what we are trying to do here. We understand that the Dyno is a Marketing tool to gain clientele etc. John and I as well as his staff have had these conversations on multiple occasions.

Again, the point here is to show the results and compile enough data for the community.

As far as defending the dyno readings and state of our tunes, I think any business owner would do the same.

We will eventually adjust the settings? Possibly after we compile enough data, but that is up to John.

-Dave
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Old 10-20-2013, 08:59 AM   #11
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Xluben:

If it is the same model dyno being compared here then one of the dynos has numbers that are "wrong". I think you agree with this. In this thread you are basically saying another shop is lying about their numbers. You should expect to have the details analyzed in a critical manner

Dave - We are not saying other shops are lying, this is how you interpret the thread. We did know that the details would be analyzed and critiqued.

You say numbers are just numbers and you only cared about gains but I then see every Akuma post defending a low dyno and even see threads like this this that are specifically about comparing dyno numbers!

Dave - Yes we are providing the data from the aforementioned vehicles for illustration purposes. Again we are a business and when called out we will defend our product and clients.

If you really cared about putting this to bed you would just take a few cars you tuned and have them dyno'd at other shops. Calling out other shops for not coming to you, when you could do the same thing you're proposing is quite hypocritical.

Dave - Again, we are not calling out other shops or commenting on the tunes they have provided. If Akuma was going to do that we would have posted shops names etc. What we are doing is informing the members that may have commented on our readings and tuning abilities, most of which have never been to Akuma. I would be more then happy to do this with my new build, but again what shop is going to subject themselves to the scrutiny that is going on right here? Even after we provided sound data.

I fell subject to the my number s are low with my very first tune at Akuma, but after being here for some time, watching the tuning and calibration process, I can not dismiss the data here.


-Dave

Last edited by AkumaMotorsports; 10-20-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:10 AM   #12
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While the ideas in this thread are valid but the way they are presented comes across as arrogant.

The basic format is:
- This guys says he makes 500 whp
- Our better calibrated dyno says he is no where near that
- But we tuned his car and made it a little better

I understand that Akuma is fighting an uphill battle against inflated dyno numbers and this thread illustrates that frustration. They approach cars from a purely engineering perspective, which is good because the quality of their work is high. But when their results are compared others in the flat-bill nut-swinging competition that is the world of online forums, they look inferior because the dyno graph is the only thing that matters.

If I was John, I would make threads showing the good work they do and the quality of the products they offer. I wouldn't bother trying to convince the entire online community that the dyno plots of other companies post are lies. Just let it go

Last edited by Bad Noodle; 10-20-2013 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:14 AM   #13
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rsutton1223,

That is very interesting information in the you tube thread (thanks).

Akuma performs almost all of our tunes on Saturday. Fortunately, I am there at the shop on Saturdays. I help strap in the cars down and watch John perform the 4000-rpm (correction 5000-rpm) calibration (before and after any comparison testing). If I remember correctly in the video there is mention of a 500 WHP vehicle seeing a 20 WHP delta when not calibrating properly, that is only approx. a 4% differential, not 15% or more.

-Dave

Last edited by AkumaMotorsports; 10-20-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:19 AM   #14
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Bad Noodle and the rest of the forum members, this was not our intention at all! And you are 100% correct this is an uphill battle.

We are concentrating on a few new builds that are going to be well documented in our daily Akuma Customer and in the Proven Power Bragging thread.

-Dave
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:35 AM   #15
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The AMS video is exactly what I was alluding to. I love the capabilities of the Mustang for tuning purposes. However, it is far to easy for anyone to manipulate the numbers. I have asked Mustang if this can be standardized in some way. He said they have a new version of their software on the way, so lets keep our fingers crossed. FYI, we cal at a given speed for every car immediately before the tuning session. I like to use 5000 RPM as it can be a little more accurate when revving a car beyond 6500 RPM...small nuance, but just some info.

I will keep everyone posted if I can find a solution from Mustang to try and even the paying field. Maybe Dynojet software on the Mustang....LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Noodle View Post
While the ideas in this thread are valid but the way they are presented comes across as arrogant.

The basic format is:
- This guys says he makes 500 whp
- Our better calibrated dyno says he is no where near that
- But we tuned his car and made it a little better

I understand that Akuma is fighting an uphill battle against inflated dyno numbers and this thread illustrates that frustration. They approach cars from a purely engineering perspective, which is good because the quality of their work is high. But when their results are compared others in the flat-bill nut-swinging competition that is the world of online forums, they look inferior because the dyno graph is the only thing that matters.

If I was John, I would make threads showing the good work they do and the quality of the products they offer. I wouldn't bother trying to convince the entire online community that the dyno plots of other companies post are lies. Just let it go
I think this is a very intelligent response. It did not even occur to me that I was being 'arrogant' in the tone of the post. If so, I apologize, as it was not my intention.

To be honest, we have had a large amount of customers come in and say how they were at shop X and that shop X said Akuma was 'blah....blah' and hey look we(shop X) make soooo much power.... so Akuma must suck.

As such, I wanted empirical data to show this is just numbers, that is all. We calibrate the cars as they are supposed to be. I include the customer in the decision making process every time, and he/she is also welcome at the dyno area to watch the results.

I have come to the conclusion, that you may be right. Get off my high horse, and turn up the volume(correction) like everyone else. I bet everyone is sick of hearing how 'low' the dyno reads. Then Xluben and friends can pick at somepoe else...LOL

I would really like to travel to another shop with a car and tune there....I think that would be a very cool idea as well. maybe one Mustang and one Dynojet for compare? I like it.

Thanks for some of the insight here, and we will continue to provide superior service and stand behind that. Thanks again!

John

Last edited by AkumaMotorsports; 10-20-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 10-20-2013, 01:14 PM   #16
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I had a tune by a local tuner (now out of business) in socal. The dyno they used was a mustang. They provided the mustang numbers along with "dynojet" numbers with a correction factor.
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Old 10-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #17
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^^^^^^^^^^

That's pretty cool actually do know what correction factor they were using or can you post the sheets? Please block out all names, addresses etc. Were they actual plots or they just gave the information verbally?

-Dave
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:23 PM   #18
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Unfortunately, I don't keep my sheets that long.

I believe it was just a rough estimate, but I am sure it can be done pretty easily. Might have even been a verbal estimate.
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:49 AM   #19
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Within the last week, both Airboy and STi Mikey posted in the "stock turbo world record" thread that current Mustang calibration will read within 5-6% of a Dynojet. This is on par with what I have seen locally and on the forums (COBB, EFI, etc). 5+ years ago the Mustang's all read a good 15% or more lower than Dynojets, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Innovative and EQ also used to make a big deal about their "low reading dyno's" and I commented on their posts as well, so I'm not just picking on you. They have both recently changed to new calibration for 2012/2013. I'm not saying that artificially bumping up numbers is right, but I just get tired of shops making such a big deal about the numbers. I think it would help everyone if all dyno's were calibrated to the same level.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:24 AM   #20
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I am also tired of certain shops wearing a "heartbreaker dyno" as a badge of courage. There is a shop that does that down here that is really just an excuse for bad tunes...
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:05 PM   #21
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A good or bad tune is just that, a tune. That should be viewed as a completely separate entity as a low or high reading dyno. Car X reading 300hp or 400hp on dyno Y or dyno Z makes no difference. The tune is the same and the quality of the tune is the same. Typically a "heartbreaker" dyno shop is simply not attempting to over-inflate their numbers as a marketing tool for sales. The quality of the tune is irrelevant. The quality of the tune is simply a byproduct of the tuner. You just pick the shop that has the better tuner. At the end of the day, the dyno numbers will be whatever they are, and they really shouldn't matter.

I don't get the arguments against Akuma either about their dyno results. They seem pretty normal to me for what I'd expect to see.

We've got 3 dyno shops in Minnesota. My and my brother's cars have been on and tuned at all three. Each of them are a different dyno type. One's a Mustang, one's a Dynojet, and one's a Dyno Dynamics. Two read basically the same and one reads a little high(~10%). I've seen the highest numbers on the Dynojet, but really I view it all as relative to the settings. Labels are thrown around for fun, but really you just stick to the same dyno if you want comparable results. The raw numbers don't matter. Even little things like how tight they strap down your car, your tires and tire pressure play a role. With the turbo cars, how they chose to cool the car will also influence the results. I mean stick a fan in front of the versus sticking one right on the intercooler will give you a whopping 40hp difference on a bone stock car. A person tends to stop caring about raw numbers when they see how easily they can fluctuate from small things. You should really only be interested in the curve, any boost/timing/knock/AF issues, and simply use the tool as a comparison between mods.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Within the last week, both Airboy and STi Mikey posted in the "stock turbo world record" thread that current Mustang calibration will read within 5-6% of a Dynojet. This is on par with what I have seen locally and on the forums (COBB, EFI, etc). 5+ years ago the Mustang's all read a good 15% or more lower than Dynojets, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Innovative and EQ also used to make a big deal about their "low reading dyno's" and I commented on their posts as well, so I'm not just picking on you. They have both recently changed to new calibration for 2012/2013. I'm not saying that artificially bumping up numbers is right, but I just get tired of shops making such a big deal about the numbers. I think it would help everyone if all dyno's were calibrated to the same level.
My dyno is more than 5 years old and I found the same as Akuma over and over. The difference to other dynos was huge.

I haven't updated the software on our dyno since I got it so I have no idea if the newer software you're talking about reads higher, but if people are correctly calibrating the dyno as we do and it only reads 5% lower than a Dynojet, Mustang must have changed something. This would explain why we have to add what we do to get our numbers up to Cobb's readings on their Mustang if it's true.

Stock STIs making 195-205 wheel HP was one thing, but when a Supra we built made 700 HP here on 32 psi on a cool day and over 900 on a Dynojet at 30 psi on a hot day I had enough. It was ridiculous. Now most STIs baseline in the 230-240 range on our dyno. My conversion got our Mustang dyno up to about where Cobb's Mustang dyno was reading. It's still lower than a Dynojet, but nothing crazy like before so I no longer have to disclaimer or explain results on our dyno which simplifies things.

Ours is also set up to record raw and corrected figures for every pull so we can compare to old graphs and use raw numbers for classing purposes as some series add a percentage to mustang dyno numbers.

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 10-21-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:56 PM   #23
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Thanks all for responding there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism. We were hoping it would get more positive and as John stated previously we are working with Mustang and inquiring about new software.

Akuma does not provide bad tunes to our clients and then blame a low reading dyno.

That said, we are working with a few shops as well trying to get some standardization of different dynos in the area.

Innovative, thanks for your input and honesty.

-Dave

Last edited by AkumaMotorsports; 10-21-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
. I'm not saying that artificially bumping up numbers is right, but I just get tired of shops making such a big deal about the numbers. I think it would help everyone if all dyno's were calibrated to the same level.
Shops make a big deal about it because half their customers have "a friend with 500+ WHP on pump" or whatever. Perhaps half is an exaggeration, but it really does seem like half.

It's impossible to expect that dynos are all going to settle on the same calibration factor. There are too many customers who are not clued in to the difference in dynos... there will always be a shop taking advantage of anything they can do to make a dyno read a bit higher in order to gain those ignorant customers (who also tend to be good targets for upselling on parts and labor too.)

The reality is that there will always be this dyno discrepancy. You'll ALWAYS have dyno to dyno variation. The best you can do is continually inform.

If anything the change in the Mustang calibration adds even more confusion, since "mustang" calibration now means at least two different things for a "standard" calibration then potentially any number of "fudge factor" calibrations.

Wanting all dynos in the country to read about the same is a noble thought, but in reality, pretty wishful thinking with so many brands of dynos and different types of shops using them.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:15 AM   #25
AkumaMotorsports
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Very well said and we do agree, but why not give it a shot at least locally. Yes, I understand that the dyno numbers are a "Marketing" tool to gain clientele etc. (not just a tuning tool to the public). As I stated earlier I was too confused with my dyno numbers when I first started tuning my car. The problem also being if the correction factors are turned-up, then we have to deal with our current customer base and how they are going to react to numbers they received and numbers new clientele are receiving.

Again, the understanding needs to be there if we do come up with a reasonable "K-factor" so they can calculate the older readings to the newer ones. This is where things get sticky, as you stated the educated clients (understanding dyno numbers) will understand, but the not so educated may not and hence business can be lost.

-Dave
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