Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday October 30, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Subaru Conversions

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-11-2013, 11:24 PM   #1
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default subaru swap/frankenmotor info

hello all. after ghosting several other subaru sites, i decided that you guys seem to have the best and the brightest here, so i signed up.

a little background on me....

i have been working on cars my entire life, so i am no stranger to much of this stuff. from transmissions to CAN networks, i have pretty much seen alot of stuff.

not being up on the subaru lingo has brought me here. from phase1 to frankenmotor...it's all greek to me!

what i am trying to do is swap a 98 ej22 into a vw bus. but having 140h/p isn't enough (i'm greedy!) i have already made my euc harness etc and know that end is good.

what i would like to know is, what is a GOOD honest reliable way to bump up the performance of this engine? i was thinking of doing a stroker crank or a 2.5 s/b with the 98 heads. i am not going for speed (have you ever driven a vw bus?) but i need torque and honest reliable power

what would it take to make say, 160-180 h/p and a respectable increse in torque? so subaru guru's lay it on me. i have read thread after thread till i went cross eyed. i just need a simple recipe to get me there!

here is a few links to some stuff i have done...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vie...ht=white+trash

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vie...light=nose+job

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vie...winter+project

and this is the bus getting the swap


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vie...=shoot++deluxe

as you can see, i love dissapointment in my life after the stroker i built for my camper, i just don't have it in me to spend another 5K for a wimpy 115h/p so i decided to go subaru.

if my question is out of place, please let me know, and i will take may ball to a different sand box

thanks for any info!

don
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 03:59 AM   #2
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

Sadly this isn't the place. NASIOC has this mentality where if it's not designed for it, doesn't plug in and go first time and requires an IQ higher than a potato, then it's not worth doing, buy a brand new car, yada yada. And it frustrates the **** out of me.
i_c_the_light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 04:03 AM   #3
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

But I would suggest dropping a 25D right in there using the 22e wiring. My knowledge of USDM N/A interchangeability is poor though.
i_c_the_light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 08:00 AM   #4
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

Well, that kind of stinks! What is a good resource for building up a n/a engine? I am not looking to build something on the edge, just a healthy "frankenmotor".

Well, I guess I will have to just figure it out then. If anyone can point me in a direction, I would really appreciate it!

Don
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 08:09 AM   #5
Loyale93
n00b Moderator
Moderator
 
Member#: 91347
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Moscow, Russia
Vehicle:
'13 XV Crosstrek,
1050 Triumph Speed Triple

Default

Start in the built motor and NA engine forums. Tons of info there.
Loyale93 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 10:27 AM   #6
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

Cool! Is there a way to contact a moderator to move my question over there? I don't want to have a duplicate thread.

Thanks!
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 11:48 AM   #7
Gallo2011
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 268310
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: So Kali
Vehicle:
2011 SSM STI saloon
Church!

Default

Jack or Mulder can move it for you.

Good luck with your swap! Don't give up!
Gallo2011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 11:55 AM   #8
Loyale93
n00b Moderator
Moderator
 
Member#: 91347
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Moscow, Russia
Vehicle:
'13 XV Crosstrek,
1050 Triumph Speed Triple

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru swap View Post
Cool! Is there a way to contact a moderator to move my question over there? I don't want to have a duplicate thread.

Thanks!
Wow, how conscientious!!

At the bottom of the main Newbie forum page, you'll see which mods work the forum. PM one of them to help you out.

And fill in your profile so we know where you live.

i_c_the_light is being a bit of a Pessimistic Patty. We don't all think that if it doesn't drop right in, it isn't worth it. That applies more to guys who have a GD chassis RS and want to do a WRX swap. Well, it kind of applies here because it's the same chassis. The amount of added cost to do that would probably net you a WRX of the same year. Same goes for turning auto into manual.

If you have a 2003 2.5RS auto, and want to do a full tranny swap, why not just sell the 2003 and buy another 2003 with a manual. You might be out $500 on the sale/purchase, but way fewer headaches.

Doing full motor swaps into older vehicles... Totally different story. The 98 didn't have the WRX motor around here, so wanting to swap in something with more power... Good on'ya, mate!!
Loyale93 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 03:35 PM   #9
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

There is an element of truth in it.

You've got the wiring in, so I'd treat it like a Subaru. EJ22T is an option. Not too much more horses, but good torque boost. Mate with 25D heads and TD04. You could try a WAIC instead of a front mount.
i_c_the_light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 04:45 PM   #10
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

i think you guys missed what i was asking....

i am putting a ej22 into a vw bus....not another subaru. i want to build a hot little ej22 sohc for the bus, all n/a not doing boost (yet!)

i will p.m. a mod and ask where my thread should be moved to.

thanks again guys!

don
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 06:20 PM   #11
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru swap View Post
i think you guys missed what i was asking....

i am putting a ej22 into a vw bus....not another subaru. i want to build a hot little ej22 sohc for the bus, all n/a not doing boost (yet!)

i will p.m. a mod and ask where my thread should be moved to.

thanks again guys!

don
yeah but because the bus has the wiring for the EJ, it can easily be played with like it is a Subaru. There really isn't too much you can do. You could use a 25D ECU which would give an improvement over the 22E. Are you sticking with the 2.2 or are you willing to look at other engine options
i_c_the_light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 06:46 PM   #12
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

hi! i can't go DOHC due to space between the frame rails. i could cut the bus up, but i am not a total butcher....not a purist either, but this bus is going to be over the top as far as detail.

i will post photo's of what i have going on soon
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 06:53 PM   #13
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

ha! tried to contact a moderator, and don't have enough post's yet! you guys are strict haha!!
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 06:57 PM   #14
Hondaslayer
Purified Dick
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

I'll report the thread and have one of the mods for newbies move it into the Subaru Conversions forum (best place for it, lots of VW / AC Porsche swap info there)

Stick around, this place is a thousand times better than TheSamba.



<---------------

Edit: Skills? NICE! I loved reading your last build thread, welcome to the dark side!
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 08:32 PM   #15
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
I'll report the thread and have one of the mods for newbies move it into the Subaru Conversions forum (best place for it, lots of VW / AC Porsche swap info there)

Stick around, this place is a thousand times better than TheSamba.



<---------------

Edit: Skills? NICE! I loved reading your last build thread, welcome to the dark side!

yes sir! it's me. i have to say, this side is darker than i thought! the subie stuff reminds me of my 1.8T rabbit days! i just can't build another aircooled vw around chinese junk, let alone the price tag...for what? a blistering 100 horse for 5K? i'm not cheap, just realistic.

some vw guys see the subaru as a no-no, but with T4 guys driving around with puckered asses waiting for a valve to drop, or the T1 guys scrambing to buy up any mag cases this just makes more sense to me.

i can't leave well enough alone, and want to upgrade my ej22 a bit
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 08:50 PM   #16
Hondaslayer
Purified Dick
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

Good to hear! What are your plans for cooling? I was never a fan of the under car radiators myself. Are you going Brazilian front?

Anyway, My personal favorite Frankenmotor is the following:

EJ25 from a 2000 + (higher compression)
EJ22 heads (light head work is a plus)
Delta cams (cheap, reliable, and they know Subarus)
Borla header

Should be good for ~ 180hp. Note: Runs best on 91 octane or higher.


I look forward to your new build
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 10:19 PM   #17
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

^^^^^THAT is what i needed to know! i am beat, i have been plazma cutting my mount bar etc, but i will post some pix here soon.

i am going to run the radiators in the engine bay like the boys from down under did with the 6 cyl subaru.

what i am trying to figure out is like what you have just posted. i need to know:

block (year/model)
heads (i have single port 98 heads)
which head gaskets
what should be done to the fuel system to support the build
(i have the harness and ecu all set to go out of a 98 legacy i bought for a donor)

i read through some of the stuff here and my eyes go crossed....it would be like me saying to a subie guy 'take a ABA lower end, use a A3 head gasket and a big valve JH head. then you need the ABA head bolts to.... then use a PD crank with AWM rods with 19mm wrist pin bushings from a 9A" haha!

so yea, all the 'roo lingo may as well be spanish to me!
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2013, 12:30 AM   #18
Hondaslayer
Purified Dick
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

Nice, I was hoping you might say that

This is a great thread on Frankenmotors http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631527

For the block I would go with a 2000 - 2004 EJ25 for the slight bump in compression. You can use the 96-99 shortblock, but it will be slightly down on power (very slight) the plus side is you might be able to get away with mid-grade (depending on how wild or mild you go)

The 98 single ports will work, if you can find them I would go with the twin port heads as they will create a bit of a bottleneck. The good news there is that the castings are pretty much the same, so twin ports will bolt in place. The thing you will need to keep an eye out for is the intake side, you want to make sure that the heads you have will match your intake manifold. Head wise I forget which years used the single port, but it was not many. Twin ports are common enough.

Headgaskets. Match the headgasket to the block. Using a 2.5 litre block will need 2.5 litre headgaskets. There is a very specific torque sequence for them that must be followed. The bolts are a torque to yield bols. For a frankenmotor I would suggest new bolts. Some people will push for head stud kits, I personally like to use bolts as it allows in car head removal if need be. If it was a stock Ej22 rebuild I would reuse them and not give a damn

Fuel system. IIRC the early F150 uses the same size pump that the FI bus and Vanagon use. The Bosch P/N is a 69100 (for the F150) IIRC it is pretty cheap. The only downside is the outlet is a little longer so I had to mount it slightly further back to avoid pinching the line, no biggie though. (I put it in as a stock replacement / future proof for an EJ swap) Figure a fuel pump for 302 V8 is more than sufficient for a 180hp H4

Biggest thing on making this work is to match your intake manifold and engine sensors to your ECM. So whatever heads you use make sure that your cam gears will bolt on. The shortblock will work, period, as all the crankshafts / keyways are the same size so your crank gear will slide right on.

A few side notes to replace while the engine is apart:

Timing belt

Cam and crank sensors: Kind of notorious on earlier Legacies, pretty much fixed by 98 but can't hurt (the early ones are the same and are about $75 for the pair from Subaru)

Coolant temp sensor (the double wire one) When this fails it will likely not trigger a CEL. The car will be very sluggish and get bad mileage (coming from a bus it might feel faster!) OE is about $65 IIRC, aftermarket is about $40. Replace this due to the age, it is a PITA to diagnose properly and is cheap enough to just do.

Cooling system conditioner. Under $5, recommended every coolant flush, part of the WWP-99 campaign to prevent premature headgasket failures.

There are online copies of SOA service manuals out there, just not on this site (copyrighted SOA materials, bad juju) easy enough to find, download via bittorrent or similar.

Once you start playing with the Subaru stuff you are going to look back on the AC setups and wonder "WTF were they thinking?"
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2013, 05:46 PM   #19
dragonart777
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373859
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

this sounds like a fun swap lol i do the 2.5
dragonart777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2013, 11:07 AM   #20
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

Hey guys! I didn't drop dead, been super busy. We raise about 600 turkeys and we are getting ready to process them so they can be put on the thanksgiving table.

I have some photos I will post in the next day or so. Stay tuned!
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 06:58 PM   #21
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

mount bar fab:
(gotta love the plazma cutter)



i am going to add some gussets under the mount pads. i don't think i need them, but what the hell
seeing i have a man crush on mild-core, and his setup is soo super clean, i wanted to duplicate what he has going on. i think that hiding the air cleaner under the bus is brilliant, and acts as a cold air intake.
seeing the throttle body reverser plates/flipped intakes didn't do it for me. i think the aircleaner in the bay is going to be suicide for IAT's. that said i have my adapter mocked up
let me tell you what a little pain in the ass this was to fab up...

here is the engine in place. i made a rig for my jack that attaches to the engine so i can move it around

more to come....

i came up with another way to to the t/b instead of the plate i copied. more to come on that
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 08:20 PM   #22
subi400
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 216984
Join Date: Jul 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Hayden, ID
Vehicle:
1996 Impreza outback
Green

Default

Nice!!

Sounds like a fun little project. There was another guy on here who did a franken motor 2.5 block and 2.2 head swap into a bus with delta 220 mid range cams which worked out great because of his driving and the rpm's that he spends at.

Looking at your block you have a 97 or 98 phase 1 2.2 because of the intake manifold. Now are you wanting to do the franken motor route? I actually have a set of just rebuilt phase 1 2.2 single port exhaust heads with some porting done to the valve seat area, widened the combustion chambers to match the 2.5 bore along with opening the single exhaust ports to 1 3/4". The reason I am saying this is because they are ready to go, a quick clean with some break clean on the head mating surface and will be ready to bolt on with new head gaskets of course. Will bolt up to your current intake manifold.

Any way, I have a pretty good knowledge base of the franken motor stuff now if you want to know more. Send me a pm if ya want

So, with these motors/franken setup, torque is king here. What are you looking for exactly?

~Josh
subi400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 09:40 PM   #23
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

hi josh! you are correct, the engine is a late 97 (98 model year) what i am looking for is a little extra grunt. i don't need anything too crazy, as it is with just this engine in stock form, i have already bumped the h/p by 80 horse over the stock vw engine.

just looking for a pretty simple build like hondaslayer mentioned. i hope to find a 2.5 from a junk yard, but i am on the fence, as i understand that these engines suffer from rod bearing issues. if i have to to a full rebuild, i may as well keep the engine i have and live with it i suppose.

are there any good, trustworthy subaru specific junk yards i could source a engine from? i know i can find one locally too. seeing the scope of this project, the simpler, the better
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2013, 04:19 PM   #24
subi400
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 216984
Join Date: Jul 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Hayden, ID
Vehicle:
1996 Impreza outback
Green

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subaru swap View Post
hi josh! you are correct, the engine is a late 97 (98 model year) what i am looking for is a little extra grunt. i don't need anything too crazy, as it is with just this engine in stock form, i have already bumped the h/p by 80 horse over the stock vw engine.

just looking for a pretty simple build like hondaslayer mentioned. i hope to find a 2.5 from a junk yard, but i am on the fence, as i understand that these engines suffer from rod bearing issues. if i have to to a full rebuild, i may as well keep the engine i have and live with it i suppose.

are there any good, trustworthy subaru specific junk yards i could source a engine from? i know i can find one locally too. seeing the scope of this project, the simpler, the better
These 2.5 ej251 engine suffer from rod bearing issues because idiots/real stupid people don't check their oil enough. They also don't use the correct oil so the oil gets burned more and more, they don't check it and the heat capacity of the oil goes down, thins out and you now have big issues. So, stay away from most of the stupid GF-5 rated energy conserving oils and you should be fine.... M1 0w40 works great in these engines, GC/german castrol 0w30, M1 10w30 HM for the summer.

Find someone local there who knows or someone on here who knows places where you live.
subi400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 11:01 PM   #25
subaru swap
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 373415
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: sticksville, connecticut
Default

will do! i have not yet priced a 2.5 yet, what is going rate on one? are the heads worth anything? i will have to get a long block, but seeing that the heads will be swapped i will have no real use for the dohc ones.

another stupid question. are the blocks the 'same' as far as the engine mounts/bell housing bolt pattern/crank bolt pattern? i ordered my adapter plate for a 2.2, so if that won't work with a 2.5 block, i will just have to run the 2.2, cuz i'm not going to get another adapter
subaru swap is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.