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Old 10-14-2002, 08:25 PM   #31
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
Jan -

I've looked at your setup, and it is very similar to the way mine was set up. The main difference being that I had my my crankcase vented through a catch can and back to the induction pipe, where you vent your crankcase to the ground.

In theory, I should've had more suction on the crankcase than you, and had less chance of developing enough pressure in the crankcase to inhibit turbo oil draining.

At least in my case, I definitely need the suction of the PCV valve to suck the vapors out of the crankcase.
I'm somewhat puzzeled by this thread so far. I too have experienced some unusual oil issue with the more standard "catch can" between the valve cover vents and the intake.

Basically, if I put a catch can between the valve cover vents and the intake track, I get VERY LITTLE oil in the catch can. Further analysis of the factory manuals reveals that Subaru claims the valve cover vents are in fact air intakes, not vents. According to them, both under boost and during vacuum, these server to bring fresh air into the engine.... When I get home I'll post the pages I am refereing to (Austin probably has them onhand).

From my pratical expereince at the track, most of my oil comes from the crankcase vent itself, not the valve cover vents. It seems like the logical place to put the catch can is between the crankcase vent and the pcv valve.

To further complicate issues, the STI RA engine I have has two seperate valve cover and crank case vents. I posted a picture some time ago, and it looked like this..


And


Notice on the first picture, there are two valve cover vents on each side, plus two crank case vents. There is, however, only one PCV valve in the intake manifold.

Phil, in your post were you implying the best results were with the PCV still hooked to the crankcase vent (no catch can), and the crankcase vent/PCV hookup not connected to the intake tract?

Jeff
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Old 10-14-2002, 09:19 PM   #32
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I have everything handy...
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Old 10-14-2002, 09:22 PM   #33
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System schematic
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Old 10-14-2002, 09:23 PM   #34
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And the PCV valve, just for giggles...
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Old 10-14-2002, 09:26 PM   #35
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Since they're both connected to the induction pipe, I don't see how the valve cover vents are any different than the crankcase vent (except the crankcase vent also gets the PCV valve) - I don't know why you'd want fresh air introduced into the rocker covers anyway.
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Old 10-15-2002, 12:41 AM   #36
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Sorry Bri...i meant turbo-back, my bad.

once i re-read it slower i noticed that we wouldnt have a problem with this.
is there anything we should do to safeguard this turbo though? or the engine?

thanks again
Murray
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Old 10-15-2002, 01:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
Since they're both connected to the induction pipe, I don't see how the valve cover vents are any different than the crankcase vent (except the crankcase vent also gets the PCV valve) - I don't know why you'd want fresh air introduced into the rocker covers anyway.
I thought the same thing, but take a look at the text:



"The system consists of a sealed oil filler cap, rocker covers with fresh air inlet, connecting hoses,a PCV valve and an air intake duct."

They refer to the valve cover vents as rocker cover fresh air inlets.

Further:
"fresh air is introduced into the crankcase through the con-
necting hose of the rocker cover."

Again, indicating that fresh air is drawn into the rocker covers.

If you look close at the diagram, there are little arrows indicating which way the air is flowing.. accordingly it shows the rocker covers being inlets..

Basically, they are saying under no boost, the oil is drawn directly into the engine via the PCV, and under boost, the crank case oil flows through the connecting hose into the intake tract.

So, as far as I can see, the best option is to put the catch can between the connecting hose of the crankcase vent/pcv and the intake tract. It seems like putting the catch can in the rocker cover vent path is a waste.... and sure enough in my car, with the setup of the rocker cover to catch can to intake, I get no oil in the catch can.. If I instead put the catch can between the crankvent/pcv and the intake, it seemed to work much better. (of course I guess this is pretty much what Phil said, except I left the PCV in there, since it only opens under no boost)

I think I might hook up my manual boost gauge to each and see what the conditions are under boost and no boost..


Jeff
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Old 12-10-2002, 04:34 PM   #38
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austin, do you have any updates to this problem? Is everything all good after reconfiguring your catch can set-up? I'm worried I have mine installed incorrectly. I have my valve covers and PCV t'ed into a line to the catch can with the return line going to the 1st bung on the induction hose, and the 2nd bung is capped off. I noticed my EJ20 uses a little oil, I wonder if this is the problem!
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:12 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by djerickd
I have my valve covers and PCV t'ed into a line to the catch can with the return line going to the 1st bung on the induction hose, and the 2nd bung is capped off.
How is your crankcase vent connected?

I am now running a breather filter on top of each valvecover vent. My crankcase vent is plumbed into a catch can, and then the catch can is plumbed back to a T in a hose between the induction pipe and PCV valve.

On track days and autox's I can saturate the valvecover breather filters and get a small amount of oil dripping from them, and I get an oily-milky-mung fluid in the catch can.
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:21 PM   #40
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Ok I obviously have something hooked up wrong....

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but is there 3 places in the relatively same area of which the catchcan can be connected?

1. the valve covers which come togeher infront of the intercooler
2. the PCV valve
3. the crankcase vent.

I think I should rephrase what I said after doing a lil research..

I have my valve covers and CRANKVENT t'ed into a line to the catch can with the return line going to the 1st bung on the induction hose, and the 2nd bung is capped off.

Where excatly is the PCV valve? I though it was connected to the 2nd bung on the induction hose?
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:35 PM   #41
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Austin, did you check the oil line from the turbo to the pan to see if it was plugged?
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:53 PM   #42
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The PCV valve is screwed into the intake manifold, under and just to the passenger side of the throttle body.

As the system is setup stock, there is a black plastic adapter piece which sits on top of the crank vent. A hose connects the PCV valve to the adapter, and another hose connects the indcution pipe to the adapter.

Under normal cruising with sufficient manifold vacuum, gasses are pulled from the crankcase through the PCV valve.

Under boost pressure, the PCV valve shuts, and gasses are pulled from the crankcase into the induction pipe. Obviously as the RPM's and boost pressure climb, the turbo is sucking more air and there is a greater vacuum at the inlet to the compressor wheel.

If you've been driving your car without a hose on the PCV valve, that's bad, m'kay? You'd be sucking unfiltered air through the PCV valve into the manifold anytime you're not on boost.

If your PCV valve was capped off (like mine was), then your setup sounds identical to the setup I had problems with. The problem being that 1) the valvecover vents will puff out air, which, when they're T'd with the crankcase vent, prevents gasses being sucked from the crankcase vent and may even pressurize the crankcase, and 2)at idle or on cruise, there is not enough pull from the induction pipe to suck all the blow by gasses from the crankcase. Both of those things contribute to improper crankcase ventilation (the reason you have a Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve in the first place), which causes a slight pressure buildup in the crankcase, which prevents oil from draining from the turbo, which pushes oil past the seals and into the intake and exhaust stream.

Have you checked your intercooler and intercooler piping? Are they full of oil? Are you burning much oil?
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Old 12-10-2002, 07:03 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wheeler Bement
Austin, did you check the oil line from the turbo to the pan to see if it was plugged?
Yes, I had done that. The drain line that comes off the turbo goes through the crankcase to the pan... When the car was shut down, there was no pressure in the crankcase and oil flowed through just as fast as I could pour it in. The drain line would only become clogged when the car was running.
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Old 12-10-2002, 07:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin

If your PCV valve was capped off (like mine was), then your setup sounds identical to the setup I had problems with. The problem being that 1) the valvecover vents will puff out air, which, when they're T'd with the crankcase vent, prevents gasses being sucked from the crankcase vent and may even pressurize the crankcase, and 2)at idle or on cruise, there is not enough pull from the induction pipe to suck all the blow by gasses from the crankcase. Both of those things contribute to improper crankcase ventilation (the reason you have a Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve in the first place), which causes a slight pressure buildup in the crankcase, which prevents oil from draining from the turbo, which pushes oil past the seals and into the intake and exhaust stream.
I had my PCV capped off for a while, and had similair problems. The STI engine is different in that it has two valve cover vents and two crank case vents. One vent on the valve cover is heavly baffeled and the other one is almost open. I have both sets going to a catch can as well as the pcv, and the catch can then goes to the intake. I didn't get any oil in the intake tract, and under no boost it didn't seem to pass that much via the pcv.
Jeff
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Old 12-10-2002, 07:33 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
As the system is setup stock, there is a black plastic adapter piece which sits on top of the crank vent. A hose connects the PCV valve to the adapter, and another hose connects the indcution pipe to the adapter.

Ahh ok!! I went out and looked what I did (I may not be wrong)

I ran hose from the valve covers and the adapter T'ed into to the catch can. I capped off the 2nd induction hose bung (where the adapter normally runs to from the factory, and ran the return line from the can back into the 1st bung (where the lines comming from valve covers normally conect back into the induction hose). I left the PCV valve alone.

Does that sound right?

Last time I checked my Samco hoses has no oil on em, and my oil consumption doesn't seem very high.
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Old 12-10-2002, 07:47 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by djerickd
I ran hose from the valve covers and the adapter T'ed into to the catch can. I capped off the 2nd induction hose bung (where the adapter normally runs to from the factory, and ran the return line from the can back into the 1st bung (where the lines comming from valve covers normally conect back into the induction hose). I left the PCV valve alone.

Does that sound right?
If that works for you, then fine. Having gone through what I went through, I would *not* Tee the valve cover vents in with the crankcase vent. There are actual puffs of air that come from the valvecover vents when the car is running... I'd be leary of pressurizing the crankcase vent with the positive pressure from the valvecover vents.

As long as you're still using the factory adapter, then you should be fine (although not effective). That adapter is setup to always suck from the crankcase via venturi effect, so even if you're getting most of the flow into the PCV valve from the valvecover vents, you should still get some flow out of the crankcase vent. It's just not something I'd do, though.

If I was concerned with oil dripping from the valvecover vents, I'd install a 2nd catchcan just for them.

Your setup, however, isn't very effective. All three vents are, in effect, connected directly to the PCV valve, which is where most of the suction comes from at idle/cruise. When not on boost, there really isn't any flow through your catch can. Gasses are going straight from the vents into the PCV valve. Only on boost (when the PCV valve shuts) is your catch can being used. And at that point, you'd be running essentially the same setup I was (with a closed/capped off PCV valve), with the three vents t'd together before the catch can. That setup is what caused all my problems.
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Old 12-10-2002, 08:54 PM   #47
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Holy CRAP! I'm taking it out right now!

Austin do you have an AIM account? I wanna IM you...
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Old 12-10-2002, 08:55 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
If that works for you, then fine. Having gone through what I went through, I would *not* Tee the valve cover vents in with the crankcase vent. There are actual puffs of air that come from the valvecover vents when the car is running... I'd be leary of pressurizing the crankcase vent with the positive pressure from the valvecover vents.

When I get my car up and running again, I'm going to put an old mechanical boost gauge on the output of the valve covers and the crank case, and record the pressure under different load conditions. I'm interested to see how they behave.. I too have seen puffs of air coming from the valve covers, but in my case is was on an engine with a cracked ring landing, so there was a lot of blowby building up pressure in the crank. Interesting..

Jeff
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Old 12-10-2002, 08:58 PM   #49
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Sorry, I took AIM and ICQ off my computer... that stuff interferes with prOn surfing...

Feel free to PM or email me though.
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Old 12-10-2002, 09:04 PM   #50
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here's how mine is hooked up



Thanks to mattjk for the pic, is this wrong?

heres his thread...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...=oil+catch+can
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Old 12-10-2002, 09:23 PM   #51
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Based on your picture, I can't tell where the crankcase vent is hooked up.

Based on your description of how your system is connected, IMO it's wrong.
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Old 12-10-2002, 09:24 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by sponaugle


When I get my car up and running again, I'm going to put an old mechanical boost gauge on the output of the valve covers and the crank case, and record the pressure under different load conditions. I'm interested to see how they behave.. I too have seen puffs of air coming from the valve covers, but in my case is was on an engine with a cracked ring landing, so there was a lot of blowby building up pressure in the crank. Interesting..

Jeff
/me staying tuned for results...
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Old 12-12-2002, 02:17 PM   #53
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[quote]Originally posted by djerickd
[b]


[quote]

my crankvent is hooked up from that bottom yellow arrow and t'ed in just as shown.

Is that wrong you think?

I was thinking of running a K&N breather on that silver pipe in front of the intercooler, then only running the crank vent through the can back into the induction pipe. But then the PCV would be left out...

how does that sound? Any ideas?

Thanks for helping out! I love NASIOC!
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Old 12-12-2002, 05:23 PM   #54
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It looks from the picture like your PCV valve is T'd into the two crank vents (the PCV valve is at the right hand end of the long bent yellow arrow).

It looks to me like your crank vent (the short yellow line) isn't hooked up to anything.

That's what I see from your picture. Is there something I can not see?

If that's how it's actually set up, then it's definitely wrong. Your crank vent is blocked off.
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Old 12-12-2002, 06:21 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
It looks from the picture like your PCV valve is T'd into the two crank vents (the PCV valve is at the right hand end of the long bent yellow arrow).

It looks to me like your crank vent (the short yellow line) isn't hooked up to anything.

That's what I see from your picture. Is there something I can not see?

If that's how it's actually set up, then it's definitely wrong. Your crank vent is blocked off.
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong.

1. the short yellow line represents the bung on the induction hose where the CRANK VENT is supposed to connect to.

2. the black hose that is tapped into the clear hose is routed from the crank vent, and is normally supposed to hook where the short yellow line is.
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Old 12-12-2002, 07:45 PM   #56
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OK, you're right.

It's been a while since I've seen a stock black plastic induction pipe, and I forgot that that bung stuck up like that. I thought that was your crank vent.

You say "the black hose that is tapped into the clear hose is routed from the crank vent, and is normally supposed to hook where the short yellow line is."

That means that your valvecover vents and crank vent are T'd in together, then you run that line to your catch can, then back to the induction pipe. That's identical to the setup I had problems with.

**What are you doing with the PCV valve?**

Is is capped off?
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Old 12-13-2002, 09:51 AM   #57
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My PCV valve is untouched.

What I did last night was run only the crankvent to the induction pipe and the valve cover vents are now venting to atmosphere. Hopefully that is the correct way.

I'm planning to eventually "T" in the hose going to the PCV valve so the only air going into the manifold or induction pipe is filtered through the catch can first. I figured the adaptor is basically a "T" so if I run the hose comming from the bung on the engine block to the catch can then from the can back to the same area with a "T", one side connected to the induction pipe the other to the PCV valve.

I hope that will still create enough vaccum as this would be similar to the stock setup but with the air comming from the crank vent on the block being filtered first before it enters the intake manifold or the induction pipe.

I think you said your setup was like this now.
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