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Old 12-28-2013, 06:53 AM   #1
vicious_fishes
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Default lifting inside wheel on cornering?

right so i've done a STACK of handling mods all at once. 24mm rear sway, 22mm front sway, endlinks, KW v1's, whiteline camber plates maxxed out along with stock camber bolts maxxed out, whiteline race ALK, RCA kit on the way, new KU36 tyres.

the neutral balance of the car is nice BUT... my front inside wheel is scrabbling on corner exits. rear remains planted unless i try to rotate the car and i can spin it if i'm TRYING to.

i'm not sure if this is symptomatic of the huge increase in camber/castor, the size of the new sways or the super crappy open front diff in the 5 speeds.


anybody give me some insight?
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Last edited by vicious_fishes; 12-28-2013 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:17 AM   #2
JDwhiteWRX
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get a plated front diff for sure.
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:29 AM   #3
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Any idea how much camber you ended up with front and rear?

What spring rates did you get on the KW V1s?

My understanding is that your front is too stiff on the sway bar or doesn't have enough droop travel. Easiest fixes that I know of are more droop travel in the springs, or stiffer springs up front.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by memmek2k View Post
Any idea how much camber you ended up with front and rear?

What spring rates did you get on the KW V1s?

My understanding is that your front is too stiff on the sway bar or doesn't have enough droop travel. Easiest fixes that I know of are more droop travel in the springs, or stiffer springs up front.
rear has basically zero, front i *think* is 4.5. front spring rates are 345 lb/in iirc. so i would have thought plenty stiff enough for a 22mm front sway
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:03 PM   #5
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Front springs sound a little soft. It seems like you are trying to control roll with the bars alone, which is not optimal. -4.5* camber is quite a bit......while your outside wheel may be standing right up and using all the surface (midcorner and corner exit), your inside wheel is jacked up onto just 0.5-1 inch of tread, and unable to provide any sort of traction on throttle. Toss in soft springs and rear squat on throttle to end up with front lift and inside wheelspin.

The initial post sounds like you have an ALK coming but not installed yet? Increasing the angle of the control arm and resulting caster is going to help immensely. You won't need to run as much static camber because the geometry changes will gain camber as you turn in. The control arm angle will help keep the front from lifting as much and keep some weight over those fronts while throttling out of the corner.

A good front diff is going to help the most. I would do that first and foremost.

Jay
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:21 PM   #6
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ALK is installed, RCA kit is on the way. i'll then have the entire whiteline catalogue installed along with KW v1's.

i had suspected the camber being the cause but sounds like it's the diff largely. don't reckon i'll bother with a new diff until i get a new gearbox though. no point bothering with a stock 5 speed...
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Old 12-28-2013, 06:52 PM   #7
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I would set your camber plates to add more caster as well. Swap the plates L to R and orient them at a 45* angle. That will give you a little less camber but increase the caster.

If you're running alloy control arms, flip the steel stubs over to push the control arm out in the rear, which shifts the balljoint forward for more caster. If your ALK is just the offset bushings, consider taller bush housings to increase that control arm angle.

I just noticed you're running an EZ30D? That torque is going to fry the inside wheel with an open diff! The extra 80lbs in front of the front axle tells me you might be better off with spring rates in the 600lb range or more!

Good luck and have fun!
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Old 12-28-2013, 06:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Storm View Post
I would set your camber plates to add more caster as well. Swap the plates L to R and orient them at a 45* angle. That will give you a little less camber but increase the caster.
already done that, they're set for camber/caster.
Quote:

If you're running alloy control arms, flip the steel stubs over to push the control arm out in the rear, which shifts the balljoint forward for more caster.
way ahead of you there too
Quote:
If your ALK is just the offset bushings, consider taller bush housings to increase that control arm angle.

I just noticed you're running an EZ30D? That torque is going to fry the inside wheel with an open diff! The extra 80lbs in front of the front axle tells me you might be better off with spring rates in the 600lb range or more!
well it's not *really* 80lbs more up front. factor in all the cast iron exhaust pieces, turbo, intercooler, bumper beam etc from a turbo'd EJ... apparently with all that crap attached the engines are VERY close to the same weight.
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Good luck and have fun!
Jay
hah. yeah it's a riot. powerslides everywhere
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:46 PM   #9
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What do you usually use the car for? Was it lifting the inside front at the track or on the street?
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:17 PM   #10
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What class are you planning to run this in ?

Autocross?….ALK automatically puts you beyond Street mod…into FP or XP.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
i had suspected the camber being the cause but sounds like it's the diff largely.
Even with a fancy diff, if the inside tire is hardly getting any contact with the road, it's going to lose traction easily. You're not gaining anything by running -4.5* of camber up front, so I think the excessive negative camber is just as much (if not more) to blame.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:50 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by outlawsubie View Post
What do you usually use the car for? Was it lifting the inside front at the track or on the street?
track. but it'll do it on the street if i push it hard (in the right/safe spot obviously)

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What class are you planning to run this in ?

Autocross?….ALK automatically puts you beyond Street mod…into FP or XP.
i'm in aussieland. just track days.
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Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
Even with a fancy diff, if the inside tire is hardly getting any contact with the road, it's going to lose traction easily. You're not gaining anything by running -4.5* of camber up front, so I think the excessive negative camber is just as much (if not more) to blame.
this is my concern - i haven't got a decent spotter to sit inside the corner and tell me what's going on. but even before installing all this stuff i used to fry the inside front wheel on corner exits under the right circumstances too, so i'm suspecting it's the diff more than the suspension.

i assumed there might be some commonality with scrabbling on the front end with new sways or something that others had experienced. maybe not.

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 12-29-2013 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 12-28-2013, 11:43 PM   #13
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DIFF!!!!!!!! It's not causing the tire to lift but the lack of a diff is causing the inside tire to lite up and spin. Lifting the inside front tire is nothing uncommon. Just as others have stated, -4.5 deg of front camber is to much. I myself am not a huge fan of massive amounts of castor either. Your springs are a little soft but not the end of the world in my opinion. I like bigger bars though. I run 450ft and 500rr with 27mm bars front and rear. You need to address the diff issue first. Next, get some really beefy front fender braces like the Robispec units. IMO again, zero rear camber is good but -3 to -3.5 will be better in the front. There's a lot of different ways to skin a cat. Your in the right direction but the diff is going to limit you for now.

Last edited by outlawsubie; 12-28-2013 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:38 AM   #14
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oh yes i did the fender braces too. forgot about them. and rear X strut brace.

i'm not SURE on the 4.5 figure. i believe the camber plates give up to 3 and the stock bolts 1.5 if you max them out yeah?

edit: 2.5 on the plates, unsure on the bolts. both are maxxed out.

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 12-29-2013 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 12-29-2013, 10:39 AM   #15
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Sounds like you need to get a proper alignment, either at a shop or by someone who has the tools to do a driveway alignment. Just maxing the settings out doesn't guarantee equal numbers for camber/caster on both sides.

Differentials are very worthwhile as well, but I'd suggest doing your research on helical vs plated (clutch pack) for the front. If your goal is just track days and not autocross then a helical diff might serve you better matched to a stiffer front bar. The spring rates of the KW's aren't bad for track work, but you will want to go stiffer as you get more competitive.

Do you have a budget for the car? There are a lot of suggestions we can make, but without a goal and a budget set out they won't help as much.
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Old 12-29-2013, 11:08 AM   #16
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Sounds like you need to get a proper alignment, either at a shop or by someone who has the tools to do a driveway alignment. Just maxing the settings out doesn't guarantee equal numbers for camber/caster on both sides.

Differentials are very worthwhile as well, but I'd suggest doing your research on helical vs plated (clutch pack) for the front. If your goal is just track days and not autocross then a helical diff might serve you better matched to a stiffer front bar. The spring rates of the KW's aren't bad for track work, but you will want to go stiffer as you get more competitive.

Do you have a budget for the car? There are a lot of suggestions we can make, but without a goal and a budget set out they won't help as much.
i'll spend whatever is necessary but not a dime more

i was intending on getting a TBD up front (OBX makes a cheap one that you can replace the washers in to make it good) and PPG make a good one. but it's obviously not optimal to do so if you're lifting a wheel anyways. hence me wanting to make sure the suspension is right.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:09 PM   #17
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My question is this. What exactly is your definition of lifting the front wheel? Have you visually seen it? Or is the inside wheel spinning due to a lighter load? With you suspension set, there just can't be much wrong that will make huge changes in what your describing. Unless something is a completely bound up not allowing any droop at all. If your car has an open diff, your never going to get good, on throttle exit up front under extreme driving conditions.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:22 PM   #18
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I admit to running an OBX front diff in the racecar for a number of years now. It is great when the wheels are not in the air, but wasn't helping much when I was hanging the front wheel in the air on just about every corner. Once I solved the problem with chassis bracing and geometry changes, it occasionally leaves the ground but I don't notice any loss of traction, except when bouncing off curbs.

Being in Aussieland, you may have an easier time finding a 5speed DCCD. If you can find one for a reasonable cost, I highly suggest it. Routing up to 65% of the torque to the rear wheels will help to keep from overpowering the fronts as much. A 6 speed with DCCD would be even better, and have a front diff already, making it a very cost effective upgrade to solve this issue along with the potential issues of gear breakage.

Jay
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:34 PM   #19
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I admit to running an OBX front diff in the racecar for a number of years now. It is great when the wheels are not in the air, but wasn't helping much when I was hanging the front wheel in the air on just about every corner. Once I solved the problem with chassis bracing and geometry changes, it occasionally leaves the ground but I don't notice any loss of traction, except when bouncing off curbs.
this is exactly the information i was looking for, thankyou.
Quote:
Being in Aussieland, you may have an easier time finding a 5speed DCCD. If you can find one for a reasonable cost, I highly suggest it. Routing up to 65% of the torque to the rear wheels will help to keep from overpowering the fronts as much. A 6 speed with DCCD would be even better, and have a front diff already, making it a very cost effective upgrade to solve this issue along with the potential issues of gear breakage.

Jay
i've found a cheap 6 speed but it's the liberty (legacy) gt one that has the crappy front diff.

we'll see how things are once the RCA kit is installed. doesn't look like there is going to be any kind of easy solution
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:35 PM   #20
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wow, learned more from 10 mins reading than trolling for years. Thanks for the insight.

Mine a DD and rallycross (SCCA, not euro style) x10 events a year. Traction is key on our dirt/sand/gravel/clay surfaces. All 4 wheels are mostly slipping when at speed. Power slides with throttle steer are common and always fun.

Use dedicated rally tires. Have plated rear, mechanical front and active center from a jdm 6 speed. Love the 6 speed. Can hear the front diff moan (really!) when it is heavily engaged. Big sways front/rear, bushings all over, tokico spec d's on a softer setting, stock springs. Have tower braces, no undercar bracing due to ground clearance. Camber at -1.5 on all 4 wheels. Do have camber plates and used to wank to max camber but found not that big of advantage.

Can lift inside front wheel on tarmac! Not to thread jump....but what springs might be better for racing?
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:47 PM   #21
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big sways with stock springs WILL lift wheels. anything more than 22mm on stock springs is madness. you want softer sways or stiffer springs.

to keep ground clearance i'd get RCE black springs in your position.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:35 PM   #22
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big sways with stock springs WILL lift wheels. anything more than 22mm on stock springs is madness. you want softer sways or stiffer springs.

to keep ground clearance i'd get RCE black springs in your position.
Are you seriously giving advice in a thread looking for very similar information?
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:39 PM   #23
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Are you seriously giving advice in a thread looking for very similar information?
our situations are vastly different. i notice you've said no words to the contrary of what i said either. troll harder.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:50 PM   #24
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our situations are vastly different. i notice you've said no words to the contrary of what i said either. troll harder.
Ok pro.
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Old 12-29-2013, 05:01 PM   #25
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Ok pro.
0/10. not even a troll, just an idiot.

moving on...
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