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Old 12-29-2013, 06:24 PM   #26
outlawsubie
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Not sure why this lifting of wheels subject keeps coming up. The wheel lifting is the absolute least of the issue in your situation. BTW....22mm springs is not that big.
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:51 PM   #27
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I'll look into the RCE blacks, thanks for the suggestion. I actually forget my sway size (24 rear and 22 front probably), whiteline adjustable fronts/rears both set soft.
And 2nd the 6 spd idea as you get lsd front/rear for the cost of building a good 5 spd. Here's rallispec's trans ID chart for a lineup

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2173258&page=2

go to post 1 and click on the link.

Last edited by mhoerath; 12-29-2013 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:54 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawsubie View Post
Not sure why this lifting of wheels subject keeps coming up. The wheel lifting is the absolute least of the issue in your situation. BTW....22mm springs is not that big.
Because it causes other issues that bother people. There are solutions to lifting wheels on street tires, but even those don't solve things once you get to using r-comps.

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Originally Posted by mhoerath View Post
I'll look into the RCE blacks, thanks for the suggestion. I actually forget my sway size (24 rear and 22 front probably), whiteline adjustable fronts/rears both set soft.
And 2nd the 6 spd idea as you get lsd front/rear for the cost of building a good 5 spd. Here's rallispec's trans ID chart for a lineup

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2173258&page=2

go to post 1 and click on the link.
Having done some rally, I'm very fond of STi springs, stock sway bars, and the D-Specs or KYB AGX. This was in a 2000 Impreza, so stock bars for me were 19 or 20 mm front and 13 mm rear. It seems you have a 2003 WRX, so some slightly stiffer springs (like from an STi) would be just about perfect, and way cheaper than the RCE fare.
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:43 AM   #29
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Because it causes other issues that bother people. There are solutions to lifting wheels on street tires, but even those don't solve things once you get to using r-comps.

Having done some rally, I'm very fond of STi springs, stock sway bars, and the D-Specs or KYB AGX. This was in a 2000 Impreza, so stock bars for me were 19 or 20 mm front and 13 mm rear. It seems you have a 2003 WRX, so some slightly stiffer springs (like from an STi) would be just about perfect, and way cheaper than the RCE fare.
If I'm understanding the OP's original concern, the issue was more about, how can he keep his inside, front wheel from spinning on corner exit. If he's driving the car hard, I assume he is, the inside front wheel is going to get light due to the car being hooked up on the outside wheels. Without a proper diff, that wheel spin is not going to be eliminated. I think he is hoping for a simple solution but there isn't one. When the car is set up properly, it is going to lift the front wheel, maybe not to the naked eye but the wheel will definitely get light. Good street tires, driven hard, on the track, are no exception. A diff will cure his inside wheel spin. Setting the car up to not lift the inside tire and trying eliminate the wheel spin on corner exit, without installing a diff, will create a whole bunch of other handling issues.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:25 AM   #30
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Completely forgot this somehow. OP, what are your rear spring rates? Or are you ~350 all around? Higher rear spring will keep the front from lifting as much during hard acceleration. But, if you're already close to matched, all it's going to do is make the rear end too lively.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:34 AM   #31
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Completely forgot this somehow. OP, what are your rear spring rates? Or are you ~350 all around? Higher rear spring will keep the front from lifting as much during hard acceleration. But, if you're already close to matched, all it's going to do is make the rear end too lively.
As I stated earlier. We run 450 ft/ 500 rr. with a 27mm ft/rr bar and 0 camber. A heavier rear spring may help a little but not enough to keep the inside front wheel from spinning. It will make it livelier but he also said that he runs 0 camber in the rear as well. If he wants to tame down the rear, either add a little bit of negative camber or adjust tire pressure accordingly (one of the easiest things to fine tune a chassis). No one has mentioned brand, model and size of tire or tire pressures one time.
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:45 PM   #32
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As I stated earlier. We run 450 ft/ 500 rr. with a 27mm ft/rr bar and 0 camber. A heavier rear spring may help a little but not enough to keep the inside front wheel from spinning. It will make it livelier but he also said that he runs 0 camber in the rear as well. If he wants to tame down the rear, either add a little bit of negative camber or adjust tire pressure accordingly (one of the easiest things to fine tune a chassis). No one has mentioned brand, model and size of tire or tire pressures one time.
...Yes, and your suspension setup would be considered in the realm of reasonable (27mm rear bar? Damn... you don't have problems with inside rear lifting?). We have no idea what OP is running in the rear. OP could have 350/250 for all we know. Honestly, we have no idea what camber OP is running anywhere either, the numbers keep changing.

You haven't mentioned brand, model, size, or pressure of tires either. Is your setup for street or slicks? Advice may not apply.

It is entirely possible to reduce wheel lift and increase corner entry and exit speed without replacing any LSDs. Autocross guys have to do that all the time in ST*.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:24 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by memmek2k View Post
...Yes, and your suspension setup would be considered in the realm of reasonable (27mm rear bar? Damn... you don't have problems with inside rear lifting?). We have no idea what OP is running in the rear. OP could have 350/250 for all we know. Honestly, we have no idea what camber OP is running anywhere either, the numbers keep changing.

You haven't mentioned brand, model, size, or pressure of tires either. Is your setup for street or slicks? Advice may not apply.

It is entirely possible to reduce wheel lift and increase corner entry and exit speed without replacing any LSDs. Autocross guys have to do that all the time in ST*.
My set up is for street tires, Hankook RS3 255/40-17. My car is used only for extreme track use, although, we have taken it to a couple of autocross' for fun. The car worked surprisingly very well in an autocross situation and we set FTD with a very comfortable margin against very experienced autocrss'rs . I can totally understand in an autocross situation were the set up could be optimized with out the use of a front LSD. The OP stated that he was using the car for track use and driving on the street. Without a LSD, you will never get full benefit of the car in an extreme track situation. Under hard acceleration, the inside front tire is going to spin. He never mentioned Autocross at all, otherwise I would have not even chimed in. My autocross experience is very limited and I have never intentionally built a car for autocross use therefore I would never try to give advice on that subject. We have a lot of data and experience in a Subaru, on street tires, under extreme track use. Go to youtube. My user name is DUC626. You can find some videos there.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:42 PM   #34
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My set up is for street tires, Hankook RS3 255/40-17. My car is used only for extreme track use, although, we have taken it to a couple of autocross' for fun. The car worked surprisingly very well in an autocross situation and we set FTD with a very comfortable margin against very experienced autocrss'rs . I can totally understand in an autocross situation were the set up could be optimized with out the use of a front LSD. The OP stated that he was using the car for track use and driving on the street. Without a LSD, you will never get full benefit of the car in an extreme track situation. Under hard acceleration, the inside front tire is going to spin. He never mentioned Autocross at all, otherwise I would have not even chimed in. My autocross experience is very limited and I have never intentionally built a car for autocross use therefore I would never try to give advice on that subject. We have a lot of data and experience in a Subaru, on street tires, under extreme track use. Go to youtube. My user name is DUC626. You can find some videos there.
Good stuff on youtube, I will definitely be going through that.

I don't doubt that an LSD will help OP at all, but I'm afraid that OP's setup won't fully take advantage of the LSD, and it will just mask bad driving and suspension habits. Not knowing alignment specs and throwing a bunch of suspension mods at the car all at once are red flags for me. Eventually, OP will need good LSDs all around to take full advantage of the car for sure. It's kind of up to OP for their own build philosophy - I don't like to buy new parts until I know I'm taking full advantage of the old ones and still having issues.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:58 PM   #35
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Good stuff on youtube, I will definitely be going through that.

I don't doubt that an LSD will help OP at all, but I'm afraid that OP's setup won't fully take advantage of the LSD, and it will just mask bad driving and suspension habits. Not knowing alignment specs and throwing a bunch of suspension mods at the car all at once are red flags for me. Eventually, OP will need good LSDs all around to take full advantage of the car for sure. It's kind of up to OP for their own build philosophy - I don't like to buy new parts until I know I'm taking full advantage of the old ones and still having issues.

I definitely agree on that one. Buying the whole catalog and just bolting it on is not the best approach for sure. I like your idea up doing it in steps and seeing the differences with a particular part then adding on from there.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:16 AM   #36
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I definitely agree on that one. Buying the whole catalog and just bolting it on is not the best approach for sure. I like your idea up doing it in steps and seeing the differences with a particular part then adding on from there.
A suspension is tuned just like an engine. Bolting on parts without a vehicle specific purpose is stupid.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:06 PM   #37
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Default front inside spinning?

I currently autox my 07 2.5i with similar problems and much less torque available (currently about 155 wheel tq). On long sweepers under power the front doesnt lift, just unloads enough that the open diff spins the inside, the rear has enough weight on it to hook up what power is there. I do have enough photos and spotter feedback to be sure about it. Thus I 100% agree with the diff being the fix, not more suspension tuning.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:03 AM   #38
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If I'm understanding the OP's original concern, the issue was more about, how can he keep his inside, front wheel from spinning on corner exit. If he's driving the car hard, I assume he is, the inside front wheel is going to get light due to the car being hooked up on the outside wheels.
this is correct.
Quote:

Without a proper diff, that wheel spin is not going to be eliminated. I think he is hoping for a simple solution but there isn't one. When the car is set up properly, it is going to lift the front wheel, maybe not to the naked eye but the wheel will definitely get light. Good street tires, driven hard, on the track, are no exception. A diff will cure his inside wheel spin. Setting the car up to not lift the inside tire and trying eliminate the wheel spin on corner exit, without installing a diff, will create a whole bunch of other handling issues.
this is what my concern was. i figured it best to make sure the suspension is as good as it can be before i start doing the diffs as well.
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Good stuff on youtube, I will definitely be going through that.

I don't doubt that an LSD will help OP at all, but I'm afraid that OP's setup won't fully take advantage of the LSD, and it will just mask bad driving and suspension habits.
full whiteline catalogue with KW V1's, fender braces, rear X brace, currently 235 KU36's but i'll bin them once they're worn, 3.75 camber up front and zero at the rear. 22 front sway, 24 rear.
Quote:
Not knowing alignment specs and throwing a bunch of suspension mods at the car all at once are red flags for me. Eventually, OP will need good LSDs all around to take full advantage of the car for sure. It's kind of up to OP for their own build philosophy - I don't like to buy new parts until I know I'm taking full advantage of the old ones and still having issues.
same. hence me wanting to be sure if there's anything left to do before i go for the diffs. sounds like there isn't.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:41 AM   #39
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zero camber in the back is usually a really bad idea...hard to believe it isnt hoplessly oversteering like that
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:22 AM   #40
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zero camber in the back is usually a really bad idea...hard to believe it isnt hoplessly oversteering like that
nope. in fact it's still very mildly understeering at the limit (though i can make it oversteer).
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Old 01-02-2014, 05:38 PM   #41
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nope. in fact it's still very mildly understeering at the limit (though i can make it oversteer).
I'm calling bull****. Mind posting your alignment printout?
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:06 PM   #42
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I'm calling bull****. Mind posting your alignment printout?
alternatively, take a look at my vehicle (it's right there under my name) and you'll see my car isn't exactly "stock".

a lot of weight has been removed and a lot of weight has been added.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:48 AM   #43
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Not stock != knows how to tune suspension.

You have said your front camber is -4.5 deg, -2.5 minus whatever the bolts do (-3.5 to -3.25 most likely unless the slack was violently taken out of the system), and -3.75 deg. You obviously have no idea what your alignment is set to at all right now, why would I believe you know what your rear is at? If you're running rear camber bolts, they claim 1.5 deg adjustment, but realistic adjustment is usually far less (again, unless you violently take the slack out). If you're running rear camber plates, then we're at the same problem you have up front of sliding them to one side and having no idea what the real value is. As an example, I have stock upper camber bolts and aftermarket lower camber bolts in my front suspension, both maxed out for negative camber, and ended up with -1.6L/-2.0R. I hit both hubs with a rubber mallet to take out the slack.

Back Road Runner in the other thread has some good advice. If your rear spring really is that low, you might find some benefit from adding some neg rear camber and increasing spring rate. But I'm used to thinking about the GR chassis, not the GD chassis.

Torque-sensing differentials (Quaifes or OBX) will still not help if you are actually lifting a tire - http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/ra302c.htm . If the tire is just scrabbling, it will help then. But you yourself have said you're not entirely sure.

I still think you need to go back to basics and find out where your alignment and tires pressures are.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by memmek2k View Post
Not stock != knows how to tune suspension.

You have said your front camber is -4.5 deg, -2.5 minus whatever the bolts do (-3.5 to -3.25 most likely unless the slack was violently taken out of the system), and -3.75 deg. You obviously have no idea what your alignment is set to at all right now, why would I believe you know what your rear is at? If you're running rear camber bolts, they claim 1.5 deg adjustment, but realistic adjustment is usually far less (again, unless you violently take the slack out). If you're running rear camber plates, then we're at the same problem you have up front of sliding them to one side and having no idea what the real value is. As an example, I have stock upper camber bolts and aftermarket lower camber bolts in my front suspension, both maxed out for negative camber, and ended up with -1.6L/-2.0R. I hit both hubs with a rubber mallet to take out the slack.

Back Road Runner in the other thread has some good advice. If your rear spring really is that low, you might find some benefit from adding some neg rear camber and increasing spring rate. But I'm used to thinking about the GR chassis, not the GD chassis.

Torque-sensing differentials (Quaifes or OBX) will still not help if you are actually lifting a tire - http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/ra302c.htm . If the tire is just scrabbling, it will help then. But you yourself have said you're not entirely sure.

I still think you need to go back to basics and find out where your alignment and tires pressures are.
He clearly wants a link to a site that has stuff to buy that will fix all his problems.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:21 PM   #45
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He clearly wants a link to a site that has stuff to buy that will fix all his problems.
lol, isn't the joke there that he needs to give Turn In Concepts a call and buy whatever they tell him to?
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:36 PM   #46
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zero camber in the back is usually a really bad idea...hard to believe it isnt hoplessly oversteering like that
We run 0 camber in the rear. It's a fast set up with fresh tires and in the hands of the right driver but no room for error.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:38 PM   #47
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We run 0 camber in the rear. It's a fast set up with fresh tires and in the hands of the right driver but no room for error.
this. like i said i can MAKE it oversteer if i try/want to but it's basically snap oversteer. there isn't a great deal of warning before you've got your arms crossed up and foot buried into the firewall to pull it out of the spin

currently i'm on the centre bolt on the rear sway bar. might see what it's like on the stiffest setting. unfortunately the front isn't adjustable and the low down power of the ez30 makes it take off like a rocket.

going to have to bite the bullet on a new diff by the sounds of things.

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Old 01-03-2014, 07:38 PM   #48
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We used to run 0 in the back. It was great until we started changing pickup points. Nowadays, the front has enough bite that -1.5 and 1/8 total toe in keeps the car balanced.

Jay
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:11 PM   #49
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today's results:

RCA kit installed
1.5 turns higher ride height
rear sway on stiff
zero camber maintained

result: oversteer

front end scrabbling has been reduced however.
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:20 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by memmek2k View Post
I don't doubt that an LSD will help OP at all, but I'm afraid that OP's setup won't fully take advantage of the LSD, and it will just mask bad driving and suspension habits. Not knowing alignment specs and throwing a bunch of suspension mods at the car all at once are red flags for me. Eventually, OP will need good LSDs all around to take full advantage of the car for sure. It's kind of up to OP for their own build philosophy - I don't like to buy new parts until I know I'm taking full advantage of the old ones and still having issues.
You sir know where it's at. I've got a few questions I'll post towards the end here that I would LOVE you to look at.

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Originally Posted by jackolafedon View Post
I currently autox my 07 2.5i with similar problems and much less torque available (currently about 155 wheel tq). On long sweepers under power the front doesnt lift, just unloads enough that the open diff spins the inside, the rear has enough weight on it to hook up what power is there. I do have enough photos and spotter feedback to be sure about it. Thus I 100% agree with the diff being the fix, not more suspension tuning.
WRONG. in fact, it means that there's more suspension work that needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by memmek2k View Post
Torque-sensing differentials (Quaifes or OBX) will still not help if you are actually lifting a tire - http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/rearaxle/ra302c.htm . If the tire is just scrabbling, it will help then. But you yourself have said you're not entirely sure.
I'll put one little correction in here and then we can get into the fun stuff :P A traditional manual quaife differential WILL help if you're lifting a tire. However a clutch-type LSD will not. This is because of how the differential works. I WILL put a disclaimer on this however in that most of the quaife's ive worked with allow a 20-80 maximum split. The center spring disks in the center with the keyway shouldn't allow for a full unlock, which is what makes the quaife so awesome!

anyway.....back to VD stuffs.

I'm new in the subie field, not so much in the race world. Granted they're on different chassis but a lot of the same stuff will still apply. I'll put a second disclaimer on here that I only know enough about VD to make me dangerous.....Start talking about engine/drivetrain/electrical or tires though....now you're in my ballpark! Anyway, since we're already on the topic of lifting the insides i thought I'd put this here....but If I need to move it I will.

Sounds like to me that a lot of guys will put the frame and fender stiffening braces on without much consideration for what else is going on here....is the flex in the chassis really THAT bad? Frame stiffening aside I'd tend to believe that if you're lifting a front inside tire you should be understeering like an SOB.

typically what I've run is~ -2.5* camber in the front, -0.5-0.75 in the rear. Also for our application we'd run somwhere's in the range of +6* front caster. Granted the kingpin angles and IC's for the geometry so this won't hold true. Another item that is of concern that nobodies answered yet is your toe angles on the front and rear. we'd typically toe out on the front by ~3* and then toe in the rear by ~0.5. Having the rear toe'd in will help considerably with stability but I'm not even sure if we can adjust rear toe on these cars.

The fact that it's lifting on the front under acceleration has me a little concerned. Thinking about the load paths on that particular setup, the outside rear tire should be the heaviest loaded....which....if it were too soft, would lead to a front lift IF the front had too stiff of a ARB on it. PLEASE NOTE.....a lot of these things work together. Can't just slap stuff in and hope it works. I'm wondering if a less-stiff ARB in the front with some adjustemnt in the rear would help the problem??? ...again....I'm not real familiar with these chassis.

I am glad that k2k brought up tire pressures. These will make A LOT more difference that what you'd like to admit. One thing that he DIDNT bring up however (I'm assuming you're a he??? if not...I'm single) are corner weights. If you've just thrown everything to the max and not actually balanced out the camber,caster, toe, etc to be even, I'm assuming that your corner weights are nowhere NEAR close. Again, not real familiar with the chassis so this may or may not be a problem on the scoobs.

another thing that I'm a little worried about is that if the camber/caster/toe hasn't been aligned the fact that you're putting in a kit that changes not only your roll center but also the anti-dive (the ALK) which in turn ALSO changes the roll IC.....

Lastly why was it changed from stock? This is the big question. I'm betting the answer most will give to that question is "to make it faster....duuuh". Well.....in order to make it faster you need to know why.

to give an example......my old POS mustang had some massive body roll....and it also had some major tendency to dive on braking. Added some stiffer springs in....now we're fantastic...I could see a little body flex through corners which is really the only reason why I added the front brace bar...but I did notice a little better turn-in on the car.

I'm still seeing some squat under acceleration and it needs new rear springs anyway so....those are next. However almost all my oversteer is gone and I'm excited to see what new rear springs will do.

I digress....

The point was, I recognized what problems I had with the car, did research and then addressed those specific problems. This is typically a good approach to any tuning

anyway...sorry for the blab....maybe after looking over this i should move it to its own thread.....
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