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Old 01-06-2014, 12:38 PM   #26
gggplaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post

Cost of wiring, unfortunately, is not negligible. The cost of the physical wire is cheap, but wire harnesses can get expensive if you have to modify something that already exists. It gets worse if you have to run a new one. Adding a couple of wires seems simple, but if you have to change connectors somewhere in the harness just to add those few wires it becomes a serious change. It will impact the harness supplier as they need to change some of their tools to run more wires and plug terminals into a different connector. It could also impact assembly tooling and processes at the manufacturing facility as they'll have to work with a new connector which may mount in a different orientation or different location. And now that you've added wires you have to rerun all the electrical interference testing on that harness to make sure you haven't screwed up something else.

Plus you've added weight to the car. That's a negative impact on fuel economy, which is a huge deal these days. It seems asinine, but running from a rear camera to a front ECU/screen is probably 8-9 meters worth of harness once you weave down and around all the different body panels to keep them hidden. Because it's a safety feature the camera wires will need redundancy, so double the number and weight. And for that distance of run you'll need a larger gauge to account for the increased resistance, so increase the weight again. You probably add 30lbs to the car by adding a camera system.
No way is it 30 pounds to run a camera system. I work on industrial equipment. We have a backup camera option, and it only added 4 extra 30ft wires, which gets piggy backed onto our existing harness. They simply split off in different area's where they need to split off. As for retooling, it's transparent to us, when the supplier is asked for a quote for thousands of harnesses, they mostly calculate it based on the connectors needed and the amount of wire. Labor costs are also factored in, but 2 split off's shouldn't cost much extra. All of our wires are also printed labeled with numbers throughout the entire strand, and mostly use different colors. As for using different connectors, you can spec the connector from the camera and rearview mirror supplier to use the same brand and type of connector you use for everything else, it makes harness building easier. Overall the cost of adding our backup camera and various other sensors i've done over the years was a small increment with each change and transparent to us, we simply spec what we want and the supplier does the rest. They send out a few prototype harnesses, we try them out for a year to make sure everything works, if changes are needed, we work with them, then ring them out for at least 6 more months before we go into production with the change.

When ordering by the thousands, and in some cases hundreds of thousands of harnesses, the change is fairly negligible to the overall cost of the harness.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:19 PM   #27
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How have I been able to drive for 50 years now without a screen in front of me showing what I'm backing into? Just dumb luck I guess. Seriously, what if I just want a damn car without a crap load of extraneous stuff on it?

I do appreciate modern safety standards and the real advances in automobile safety that have been made from when I was an un-belted kid riding in the front seat of Dad's Chrysler to the advent of ABS, airbags and all but I really don't want or need a stupid video game screen in my dashboard. If you want it, fine, tick the package box that gets it on your next car and pay for it but leave me the "option" of no TV, no Bluetooth, no wi-fi and no internet (coming soon to every car in the next lane) so that I can just enjoy the drive!
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:21 PM   #28
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It may be time for you to look into the classic car section. New cars have to play keep'n up with the jones's
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:35 PM   #29
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It may be time for you to look into the classic car section.
Good advice. Vote with your wallet.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:57 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
No way is it 30 pounds to run a camera system. I work on industrial equipment. We have a backup camera option, and it only added 4 extra 30ft wires, which gets piggy backed onto our existing harness. They simply split off in different area's where they need to split off. As for retooling, it's transparent to us, when the supplier is asked for a quote for thousands of harnesses, they mostly calculate it based on the connectors needed and the amount of wire. Labor costs are also factored in, but 2 split off's shouldn't cost much extra. All of our wires are also printed labeled with numbers throughout the entire strand, and mostly use different colors. As for using different connectors, you can spec the connector from the camera and rearview mirror supplier to use the same brand and type of connector you use for everything else, it makes harness building easier. Overall the cost of adding our backup camera and various other sensors i've done over the years was a small increment with each change and transparent to us, we simply spec what we want and the supplier does the rest. They send out a few prototype harnesses, we try them out for a year to make sure everything works, if changes are needed, we work with them, then ring them out for at least 6 more months before we go into production with the change.

When ordering by the thousands, and in some cases hundreds of thousands of harnesses, the change is fairly negligible to the overall cost of the harness.
I don't disagree that things can and should be simple. But in the world of automobiles things are already designed to be as small, light, and as tightly packaged as the design allows. Making things bigger and adding more items becomes very difficult very quickly. It's not like industrial equipment where a lot of times there is room to spare because serviceability is in important part of the design. In a car you have to hide all of these things because customers care about fit and finish. Adding 4 more wires to a harness might prevent it from fitting / hiding under a trim panel or through a grommet. Automotive component design is a game of grams and tents of millimeters.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:02 PM   #31
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All this is why I refuse to currently buy any new car. To much electronic crap to deal with.

My WRX is enough with the electronic TB. I'm not afraid of technology, but I wish my cars to stay simple.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:19 PM   #32
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All this is why I refuse to currently buy any new car. To much electronic crap to deal with.

My WRX is enough with the electronic TB. I'm not afraid of technology, but I wish my cars to stay simple.
Good luck with that.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:46 PM   #33
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It may be time for you to look into the classic car section. New cars have to play keep'n up with the jones's
Been there, done that. Old cars mostly disappoint your memories of them. I just want a simple modern car that's also fun to drive and connect with dynamically not electronically. But you're right, the manufacturers will build what they think the public wants or what the gov says they have to.
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:08 PM   #34
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Apply that ridiculous logic to everything...and you see the problem.

Put me in the "leave me the hell alone" category. The government is not in the car-making business for a reason. Keep it that way.
How about you just apply it to the question at hand?

Giving you a better view of what's behind you is totally infringing upon your rights. Such hyperbole, so silly
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:14 PM   #35
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First of all I want to say sorry for ScreenName jacking...

But on the flip side, I agree with you. Auto makers are only making the consumer lazier with new technology. The reason we have so many accidents now, is because people are losing their need to actually drive. They expect the car to drive for them.

I say this to from experience. We had a BMW 335i for a while and when we traded it for the Subaru, My girlfriend suddenly became a terrible driver!

Except automobile accident and death rates have been dropping.

Maybe you've got it backwards?
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Scrappy_do View Post
First of all I want to say sorry for ScreenName jacking...

But on the flip side, I agree with you. Auto makers are only making the consumer lazier with new technology. The reason we have so many accidents now, is because people are losing their need to actually drive. They expect the car to drive for them.

I say this to from experience. We had a BMW 335i for a while and when we traded it for the Subaru, My girlfriend suddenly became a terrible driver!
Oh come on....really?

Deaths per mile traveled has been dropping for years because vehicles are getting safer and safer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_U.S._by_year

Yes, they're also getting pretty boring and in some segments heavier. But it's incorrect and silly to say that cars are less safe. And there are still plenty of fun cars out there.

Crap like this does work. My only concern is implementation and cost but I don't care that much. A backup camera would not reduce the enjoyment I get from driving a car.

Most people suck at driving. Period. This has been true for a long time. Not everyone is an enthusiast and a lot of enthusiasts suck at driving anyway. People need the help.

Also, a lot of opinions here would change if you lived in the city and had to deal with other people parallel parking near your car everyday.

- andy...who was backed into by a car as a kid.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:21 PM   #37
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What I worry about is the spiral effect we cannot get out of.
Make cars safer and smarter, people become worse drivers and stop thinking.
So you have to make cars safer and smarter
People stop thinking even more
So cars have to get smarter and smarter and safer and safer.

Suddenly compact cars cost 23000 dollars and weigh 3000+ lbs.
Eventually the driver is removed from the equation as he/she becomes so incompetent they cannot operate a vehicle because they have been dumbed down for so long.

sort of like our public school system.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:39 PM   #38
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Back up cameras as they currently are, suck. The tiny little screen only shows what us directly behind you (a true physical limitation) look over your shoulder while backing up and notice how much is missing in the peripheral on that screen.

The reason these cameras are "needed" is due to poor greenhouse design, period.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
What I worry about is the spiral effect we cannot get out of.
Make cars safer and smarter, people become worse drivers and stop thinking.
So you have to make cars safer and smarter
People stop thinking even more
So cars have to get smarter and smarter and safer and safer.

Suddenly compact cars cost 23000 dollars and weigh 3000+ lbs.
Eventually the driver is removed from the equation as he/she becomes so incompetent they cannot operate a vehicle because they have been dumbed down for so long.

sort of like our public school system.
You keep saying this even though the evidence clearly shows otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
Back up cameras as they currently are, suck. The tiny little screen only shows what us directly behind you (a true physical limitation) look over your shoulder while backing up and notice how much is missing in the peripheral on that screen.

The reason these cameras are "needed" is due to poor greenhouse design, period.
It just eliminates a blind spot that has always existed, it's not meant to be your only reference point.

Also, even though the little trajectory lines are neat, they can be really distracting. Seems like a sonar would be just as effective, but if a camera added $200 to the price of a new car it seems like a screaming value.

When people parallel park all the time, they get used to it and good at it, but the skill goes away quickly. I used to be able to vacuum pack my Mark II into spots when I lived in Japan, but 10 years later, I still have problems judging parking distances in my XV.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:40 PM   #40
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You keep saying this even though the evidence clearly shows otherwise.



It just eliminates a blind spot that has always existed, it's not meant to be your only reference point.

Also, even though the little trajectory lines are neat, they can be really distracting. Seems like a sonar would be just as effective, but if a camera added $200 to the price of a new car it seems like a screaming value.

When people parallel park all the time, they get used to it and good at it, but the skill goes away quickly. I used to be able to vacuum pack my Mark II into spots when I lived in Japan, but 10 years later, I still have problems judging parking distances in my XV.
The evidence clearly does not show anything of the sort. You keep saying that , and yet produce no proof that people have become more skilled drivers. Cars have become safer, no doubt, but that does not mean people are better.

Years ago when we started this conversation, there were not self parking cars, or cars that would brake for you or cars that would turn to keep you in the lanes. Fast forward about 8 years and look what has happened. Cars are doing more thinking.

EXACTLY LIKE I SAID

Cars have progressively increased in price and weight.

EXACTLY LIKE I SAID

THe skill of the average driver has declined more and more. As interaction and interaction of the driver and car are removed, the skill level will be further reduced. Taken to the extreme when cars start driving themselves, will people be better drivers, no they will be worse. As they are not practiced to being alert and aware of their surroundings.

THe more the car thinks the less people do. Ever see a spoiled brat that is protected by his mommy and daddy to the point they never need to do anything. What you get is a adult that cannot DO anything. The more others do your thinking for you, the less thinking you do for yourself. It is a fact of life.

Your last paragraph is just proof of my point. The more they make cars do the more they will have to continue to do. People will always rest at the lowest energy state they can get away with. Why think when others will do it for them? Why park when the car will do it for them? Why shift when the car will do it for them? It is a death spiral that goes far beyond cars. You say you have a difficult time parking your XV. Why you are out of practice. A skill was lost because you did not use it. Driving is a skill and the more the car does, the less people do, and the death spiral continues.

Why get an education when I can get 15 dollar minimum wage for flipping burgers… Same basic principle. Lowest energy setting they can get away with. Remove the consequences of being stupid by building safer and smarter cars. People will stay stupid. After all what are the consequences of begin stupid? None. You are protected, be it by the car/mommy/daddy/government/ etc.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:56 PM   #41
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If all manufacturers put backup cameras in and no one knew it was mandated by the government, people would be like, cool my base model vehicles comes with a screen.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
The evidence clearly does not show anything of the sort. You keep saying that , and yet produce no proof that people have become more skilled drivers. Cars have become safer, no doubt, but that does not mean people are better.



Years ago when we started this conversation, there were not self parking cars, or cars that would brake for you or cars that would turn to keep you in the lanes. Fast forward about 8 years and look what has happened. Cars are doing more thinking.

EXACTLY LIKE I SAID

Cars have progressively increased in price and weight.

EXACTLY LIKE I SAID

THe skill of the average driver has declined more and more. As interaction and interaction of the driver and car are removed, the skill level will be further reduced. Taken to the extreme when cars start driving themselves, will people be better drivers, no they will be worse. As they are not practiced to being alert and aware of their surroundings.

THe more the car thinks the less people do. Ever see a spoiled brat that is protected by his mommy and daddy to the point they never need to do anything. What you get is a adult that cannot DO anything. The more others do your thinking for you, the less thinking you do for yourself. It is a fact of life.

Your last paragraph is just proof of my point. The more they make cars do the more they will have to continue to do. People will always rest at the lowest energy state they can get away with. Why think when others will do it for them? Why park when the car will do it for them? Why shift when the car will do it for them? It is a death spiral that goes far beyond cars. You say you have a difficult time parking your XV. Why you are out of practice. A skill was lost because you did not use it. Driving is a skill and the more the car does, the less people do, and the death spiral continues.

Why get an education when I can get 15 dollar minimum wage for flipping burgers… Same basic principle. Lowest energy setting they can get away with. Remove the consequences of being stupid by building safer and smarter cars. People will stay stupid. After all what are the consequences of begin stupid? None. You are protected, be it by the car/mommy/daddy/government/ etc.
That's a whole lot of typing to still be wrong.



Fewer accidents because drivers are worse?

Let's face it, your entire premise is not just wrong, but ridiculous. According to you, any driving aid encourages people to disregard common sense and completely rely on it.

Do more people threshold brake now that ABS has been required for decades? No, they don't.
Do they run into things because they have airbags and increased impact standards?

Then why would they just blindly back up or change lanes? Is that the way you would drive? If you think that's the way people would react, maybe the general population isn't the dumbass in question here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime View Post
If all manufacturers put backup cameras in and no one knew it was mandated by the government, people would be like, cool my base model vehicles comes with a screen.
Pretty much.

Last edited by richde; 01-06-2014 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:11 PM   #43
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That's a whole lot of typing to still be wrong.

That graph is silly. What is it trying to show?

It compares cell phone ownership for all people with accidents per mile. First what do cell phone owners who don't drive have to do with vehicle accidents? Second, it shows the frequency of accidents are apparently dropping, but now much slower since cell phones have taken off. Third is bases accidents per billion highway miles, who cares how many highway miles were traveled, they should list number of total accidents; you could put average temperature in there and it would be about as useful.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:24 PM   #44
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[...]THe skill of the average driver has declined more and more.[...]
I agree but, IMO, the problem is that driver education is not mandatory in most parts of the country (except for minors maybe?) and the DMV driving test is usually a joke (effectively making sure that pretty much anyone will get a driving license...).
So, IMO, the average driver in the U.S. has little driving skill to begin with because he or she wasn't properly taught or trained in the first place.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:27 PM   #45
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Your thickness knows no bounds what so ever.

I said cars are getting smarter AND SAFER and safer and safer…to protect people from being worse and worse. Things like ABS made cars FAR safer to drive then cars without ABS. That alone would account for a DRASTIC decrease in accidents.

You have a slim focus that somehow limits your ability to comprehend more than one data point at a time. Your assertion that there are few crashes does nothing to disprove what I said. I said cars had been made safer. The safety features alone would account for a drop in accidents, but those same safety features also require less skill from the driver.

Let me simplify it more for you…yet again.

Proper brake modulation requires more skill than slamming on the brakes and letting ABS work. And in some conditions (read as dry) non ABS is still superior, but I will take my ABS for a daily driver thanks.

Paying attention to what is around you before you change lanes should be a requirement. I should not need a system to think for me. The driver should be responsible (I know you hate that word.. responsible, it is something you like to avoid tailing about) for his cars motion. If the driver knows the car will attempt to save him, then he may be more cavalier in his driving.

A driver should know what is behind him. That means looking behind your car before you get in, and again using your mirrors to look behind you. Children should be taught to not be behind cars when they are running. OR parents should be watching children. Again responsibility. It is not the cars job to know what is around it or behind it. It is the drivers.

THe more a car thinks the less a person will.

Do people think about shifting anymore… nope.
Do people think about modulating brakes anymore…nope
Do people think about turning on and off headlights…nope
Do people think about turning on windshield wipers…nope

Now or soon, they will not have to worry about parking, changing lanes, braking, steering.

All of that will make the driver worse until they are considered obsolete or even worse, unnecessary. Every aid that becomes added to cars that replaces thinking means drivers will eventually give up thinking

There have been several examples given IN THIS THREAD About people who rely soley on back up cameras and have had accidents, dents, and FUBAR'ed parking because the little screen said it was okay. They did not critically think, they trusted technology to think for them.

The accident rates are lower DESPITE people becoming worse, not because they are better.
We will eventually lose our choice to drive a car in the name of safety, as people like yourself will say, look how many lives we have saved with the advent of automated cars and modern safety systems. People should be taken out of the loop.

Then it will happen.

some dip **** will say… "if we can save just one child"...

Your graph is cute. I wonder where you dug it up. It does nothing to disprove what I have said.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Optimus Prime View Post
That graph is silly. What is it trying to show?

It compares cell phone ownership for all people with accidents per mile. First what do cell phone owners who don't drive have to do with vehicle accidents? Second, it shows the frequency of accidents are apparently dropping, but now much slower since cell phones have taken off. Third is bases accidents per billion highway miles, who cares how many highway miles were traveled, they should list number of total accidents; you could put average temperature in there and it would be about as useful.
Shhh in his world this is a hard fact shown to prove a point that does not exist. Do not be so cruel to him. This is how he always is. Soon his PP friends will be here to back him up…they travel in packs.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Optimus Prime View Post
That graph is silly. What is it trying to show?

It compares cell phone ownership for all people with accidents per mile. First what do cell phone owners who don't drive have to do with vehicle accidents? Second, it shows the frequency of accidents are apparently dropping, but now much slower since cell phones have taken off. Third is bases accidents per billion highway miles, who cares how many highway miles were traveled, they should list number of total accidents; you could put average temperature in there and it would be about as useful.
It shows that the accident rate is falling in a pretty graph.

You can do the same thing by looking at the census data and then dividing that by the amount of miles driven, but that's a lot of work and I figured a simple graph would get the point across.

It also doesn't say anything about "highway," it says "per vehicle mile traveled in the United States." That's how you determine the accident rate...which is going down...which would show that drivers aren't getting worse, because worse drivers would get into more accidents.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:33 PM   #48
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see how simple he thinks.

one little data point at a time.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:34 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
What I worry about is the spiral effect we cannot get out of.
Make cars safer and smarter, people become worse drivers and stop thinking.
So you have to make cars safer and smarter
People stop thinking even more
So cars have to get smarter and smarter and safer and safer.

Suddenly compact cars cost 23000 dollars and weigh 3000+ lbs.
Eventually the driver is removed from the equation as he/she becomes so incompetent they cannot operate a vehicle because they have been dumbed down for so long.

sort of like our public school system.
You do realize that with time comes change, correct? Everything can't stay the same.

I don't want to get into a big dumb debate over politics but a prime example is Social Security. It's not going to last forever but half of the old people who are receiving it never saved up for retirement and expect that money. The rest of us who are still able to work have to start saving because everyone should know it won't last long enough for us when we're there.

The kind of logic you're talking about can go both ways. Simply standing at the crossroads isn't going to do ****. And we're definitely not taking a step back so that some retard can have a "driver's car." If you want that, go to Cuba and buy one from 1959. Or just become Amish.

But I do agree partially, there is a point where we have to draw the line and make sure human evolution is still progressing, not regressing. People still need to think. Some people just can't agree on where to draw that line though obviously because they need to feel good behind a machine. I guess it's the rush just like it is for thrill seekers and daredevils.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:39 PM   #50
richde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Your thickness knows no bounds what so ever.

I said cars are getting smarter AND SAFER and safer and safer…to protect people from being worse and worse. Things like ABS made cars FAR safer to drive then cars without ABS. That alone would account for a DRASTIC decrease in accidents.

You have a slim focus that somehow limits your ability to comprehend more than one data point at a time. Your assertion that there are few crashes does nothing to disprove what I said. I said cars had been made safer. The safety features alone would account for a drop in accidents, but those same safety features also require less skill from the driver.
The safety of the car itself is reflected in the drastically reduced fatality rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
The accident rates are lower DESPITE people becoming worse, not because they are better. .
Nothing you've posted has proven anything.

Where is your proof that people are getting worse at driving? What better metric is there than the accident rate? Your unsubstantiated hunch?

Proof is how you prove something, you should try it sometime.
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