Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday November 24, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-16-2002, 11:35 PM   #1
silver arrow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Foriderp
Vehicle:
1965 MGB yellow
2008 Black Miata

Default New Ecutek, you program the stock ecu

Has anyone had any experience with this. It's sounds like it is the best of both worlds. You can start with the standard Subaru maps and slightly modify to meet you needs. you retain all the resolution, safety and driveability of the factory ecu and you can modify and data log everything the factory ecu sees. Sounds better than any of the other options out they to me. Subaru has done a great job with 99% of the programing. Mod a/f and boost and let it do the rest. If anyone has used this product please let me know, I am very interested.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
silver arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 03:22 AM   #2
HndaTch627
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6551
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Carol Stream, IL
Vehicle:
'01 GC8 Dinged STM
'09 Concours 14 ABS Black

Default

is this strictly a WRX application or is this for all subaru vehicles??

jeremy
HndaTch627 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 03:59 AM   #3
gdog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 6189
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Phoenix East Valley
Vehicle:
04
Red No More

Default

It (DELTA ECU) looks like it's primarily WRX, though a few legacy and forester were listed. They are going to officially announce US WRX support at SEMA.
It appears that they will only sell the mapping software to tuners and are distributing it through MRT.

ECUTEK
gdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 04:16 AM   #4
HndaTch627
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6551
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Carol Stream, IL
Vehicle:
'01 GC8 Dinged STM
'09 Concours 14 ABS Black

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by gdog
It (DELTA ECU) looks like it's primarily WRX, though a few legacy and forester were listed. They are going to officially announce US WRX support at SEMA.
It appears that they will only sell the mapping software to tuners and are distributing it through MRT.

ECUTEK
BASTAGES!!!!!!!!! of course, god forbid they let the entire US have at it, looks like it's time to become a tuner
HndaTch627 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 03:33 PM   #5
MastroWRX
Vendor
 
Member#: 12262
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Florida's source for Subaru
Default

I know the developer of this setup personally, you haven't seen it yet because he is so fussy about it being the best. It will do everything he says. Nicest part is the carpet doesn't even have to be lifted. Uploads in minutes.

Bound to be the one to compare the lesser units to...

Wait before you buy something else....

Bill
MastroWRX.com
MastroWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 03:35 PM   #6
silver arrow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Foriderp
Vehicle:
1965 MGB yellow
2008 Black Miata

Default

No vivid is going to sell both a single car version and a tuner version that allows multiple cars to be tuned.
silver arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 03:51 PM   #7
MastroWRX
Vendor
 
Member#: 12262
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Florida's source for Subaru
Default

I think you'll find it is not an end user device. Ecutek will be set for you. This comes from the guy who owns it.

Bill
MastroWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2002, 08:41 PM   #8
subarud
Gone.. But not forgotten
 
Member#: 9863
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Mendacity, U.S.
Vehicle:
02 WRX Blue & Fast
91 S10 Red & Abused

Default ecutek

Bill (mastro)~

I went to the ecutek site and found it quite interesting. So this is the same sort of thing that Yoshio in Canada is doing..? but with a different program?

Will there be any centers on the west coast where I can get my car tuned on a dyno while rewritting the ecu with the Ecutek? But If I add on mods I will always have to get it retuned correct (because they won't sell this to individuals?)?

I am looking at the link and utec and now this pops up again.

Thanks
Evan
subarud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 03:50 AM   #9
teiva-boy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 22825
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Default

Do they realize how much of a market they are loosing out on if end users can't tune the unit themselves?
teiva-boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 09:04 AM   #10
MastroWRX
Vendor
 
Member#: 12262
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Florida's source for Subaru
Default

Ecutek is not a simple device, it's 2+ years of R&D by some serious guys in the UK. The WRX ECU is a complex piece. I know from first hand experience. The reason it's not an end user piece is the price to have all of the stuff to do it. You need to spread the cost over multiple customers to pay it off. It's just not practical to have a few guys carry the expense. And you will likely be somewhat involved. As I understand it, when you need upgrades, it's a snap, it will work and you won't have to pull the car apart to do it. This is way ahead of the others on the market. You'll see how it affects the market soon. I don't want to say more at this point, it's not my thunder.

Bill
MastroWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 10:57 AM   #11
DAVID-ECUTEK
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20194
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Blue

Default

Bill is correct. We have been developing this software for over a year now. It follows on from our very successful system that we supply to all major tuning companies around Europe and Asia for the 2000MY Impreza turbo.

Because of our connection with POWER ENGINEERING we have access to massive experience with tuning all aspects of this car as well as unlimited use of a very sophisticated 4wd dyno.

We are tuners and we know what is required. This is not a piece of software written by a developer who has no knowledge of cars. It was written by one of our directors and developed in real mapping conditions. The software is designed to be used by tuners who will be able to develop their own conversions based around the re-mapped ECU and using their own tuning parts to compliment it. We are not supplying a ROM file which the tuner blindly flashes into the ECU, we are giving him full mapping access.

The advantages are obvious and have been stated on this thread. The factory ECU is astonishingly powerful with it’s adaptive learning of ignition (which is even more powerful than you know) and closed loop boost control. In addition the factory programmed functions of warm up, idle, emissions etc. mean that mapping the factory ECU is by far the best option from a technical and financial stand point.

The software is very very comprehensive and we offer control of a massive range of ECU functions. Whilst it is comprehensive in it’s functionality it is not complex to use. However it requires a significant understanding of tuning and of mapping. We want to provide the best possible support and help for our partners and the only way we can do this is to supply selected, respected tuning companies. It would not be possible for us to support individual software users. We have yet to appoint partners in the US which is why we are exhibiting at SEMA (a significant investment on our part). These partners will be dealing directly with us for supply and support. MRT is our exclusive partner for Australasia only.

However because of the power of the DeltaDash software which we (and our partners) can supply, you will be able to have your car mapped remotely or locally live. For example, if you have an ECU mapped by your tuner, you can then DeltaDash log the important engine functions (Note, latest version of DeltaDash supports an add-on A-D card so you can add an additional 8 channels of data into DeltaDash for further logging. We use it for wide band lambda and individual cylinder temps). You can then e-mail the log file to your tuner. Perhaps you want another 1.75psi boost at 4000rpm or need the rev limited raised. This can be done by the tuner and then mail you a new ECU for a swap out. You log the new ECU and return the original. This sounds involved but the power of both the logging and the mapping software makes this very simple. Remember we have been doing this with European tuners for a year now.

You can be sure your mapping is safe and you can give the EcuTeK tuner real hard data, not just “it feels a bit flat in the mid-range”, but “looking at the log file there is a boost dip at 3752rpm where the boost drops by 2psi until 4569rpm when it returns, can you map this out? Also looking at my ignition learning at 50% throttle angle could you add 1.5 degrees of advance between 2250 and 4000rpm”

The advantages are obvious in that you can log the car in real time, real life conditions and temperatures not just 15 minutes in the un-natural environment of the dyno. We have a 4WD dyno and we use DeltaDash for mapping all the time, we use the dyno only for power figures and back to back ROM file tests.

We understand the disappointment of not being able to map the cars yourselves as individuals but we have to make return on our considerable investment and we can only do that by dealing with tuners who carry out modifications to a number of cars rather than one individual one.


Just to re-iterate, the modified file is downloaded into the ECU via the OBD port (or bench programmer) and therefore no access to the ECU is required in the car. This is unlike the Techtom system where the main processor has to be removed. As Bill says you don’t even lift the carpet!!

We have been testing our software for 3 months in our workshop and have been mapping customers cars in the UK at our base. We have not supplied any tuners anywhere else in the world because we needed to be 100% sure that the functionality is correct. You can see typical results on the website under Developments.

The system will be available for tuners to purchase during November.

I hope this explains things a little further and clears up any misconceptions.

David Power. (yes it is my real name, hence POWER ENGINEERING and POWERFLEX)
DAVID-ECUTEK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 11:05 AM   #12
DAVID-ECUTEK
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20194
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Blue

Default

Sorry to add to an already long post.

Of course with the stock ECU you retain full OBD diagnostic facilities, and emission controls to enable passing road-side and annual inspections.
DAVID-ECUTEK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 03:03 PM   #13
pegdrgr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25693
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Portland, Or
Vehicle:
2008 18x9" goodness
E85-380ftlbs @ 3100

Default

David, I e-mailed ECUTek this same question but never received a response, how much is this likely to cost? Is it open to basically any tuning shop? I know that you will not be able to control how much a shop marks it up, but I was hoping for atleast a MSRP.
pegdrgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2002, 03:04 PM   #14
silvercharged
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 19295
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kick it out!
Default

David - Thank you for the comprehensive post regarding this new product. I'm actually surprised that you haven't been inundated with more requests for information, since this is exciting news...

Without getting into specific details (which is not my place) I would like to ask a few general questions, if I may:

Being that you're actually reprogramming the factory ECU, I assume your firm was able to obtain, or crack (for lack of a better term) the source code or software for the factory ECU?

We all know that the Subaru ECU is quite powerful, could you expand briefly on just how sophisticated you found it to be?

What about service issues? Should you take your car to the local dealer for service (ECU related or not) and they should decide to hook up the Subaru Select monitor to your car, would they think the ECU was defective due to significant changes read? And has Subaru had anything to say in the countries where this is in use (or the U.K.)?
Looking forward to more news/appointment of U.S. tuner.......
silvercharged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2002, 03:52 PM   #15
StephenDone
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 17994
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England (UK)
Vehicle:
99 Impreza UKTurbo
Midnight Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by silvercharged
David - Thank you for the comprehensive post regarding this new product. I'm actually surprised that you haven't been inundated with more requests for information, since this is exciting news...

Without getting into specific details (which is not my place) I would like to ask a few general questions, if I may:

Being that you're actually reprogramming the factory ECU, I assume your firm was able to obtain, or crack (for lack of a better term) the source code or software for the factory ECU?

We all know that the Subaru ECU is quite powerful, could you expand briefly on just how sophisticated you found it to be?

What about service issues? Should you take your car to the local dealer for service (ECU related or not) and they should decide to hook up the Subaru Select monitor to your car, would they think the ECU was defective due to significant changes read? And has Subaru had anything to say in the countries where this is in use (or the U.K.)?
Looking forward to more news/appointment of U.S. tuner.......
The standard ECU is extremely complex. Obviously Subaru have a much larger R&D budget than any of the aftermarket tuning companies, and are able to get the ECU near to perfect at everything. Think of all the things that you take for granted, such as:
# Easy engine starting, whatever the temperature.
# Rock steady idle
# Smooth cruising at all engine loads
# Stable boost control
# Reliability
# Engine diagnostics when things go wrong.

Whilst you can increase maximum power with an aftermarket ECU, it's best to ask whether you get to keep all of the above. Most of us (including me) have to use our cars day to day, as well as on the track or enjoying its performance.

After remapping, the standard ECU is still compatible with all Subaru diagnostics equipment. It will also still appear as the same ECU when queried with a select monitor. However, with all tuning products (exhausts, air filters, AFRs, turbos, piggy back ECUs etc), you should tell your dealer if you take the car back under warranty.

Stephen Done
EcuTek Developer.
StephenDone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2002, 09:22 PM   #16
teiva-boy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 22825
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Default

Still yet even though this offers many features and solves a lot of the short comings of a Unichip. It's still no better then in some ways to a unichip. Having to log data and send it(the data) and your ECU for a reprogramming or going to an "authorized" shop for retuning makes for quite an inconvienence for some.

BTW, is the delta dash software included or is that a separate expense? If not, I hope the price is rather low like in the $700-900 range since no logging is built-in.

I still feel you should leave the option up to the individual for tuning rather then letting a shop being the sole "tuning guru." Thats what disclaimers are for
teiva-boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 07:50 AM   #17
DAVID-ECUTEK
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20194
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: London
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Blue

Default

DeltaDash is available separately at approx. $335 delivered to the US. Please look at the web site for further information and an order form. www.ecutek.com


The problems that we see in the UK with cars that are fitted with the Unichip is that it confuses the ECU.

For example, the ECU is outputting injector durations based on the Air/fuel ratio that is set in the fuel table. This table is a mapped load (a calculated figure based on throttle angle, air flow and manifold relative pressure) versus RPM. It also knows the expected, achieved AFR from the lambda sensors, if these signals are altered, either on the output or the input and the air flow meter output is incorrect the whole thing gets confused. It is not seeing the correct mixture for the injector duration and not seeing the correct boost for the air flow it is seeing. It will try to compensate for this. The same is true for boost control. If the ECU is trying to achieve a boost pressure and it sees something incorrect, it will alter primary wastegate duty cycle to compensate, if the Unichip is also trying to do the same then the whole thing is a mess.

In reality, of course, you get round these problems with the Unichip and it works after a fashion and the output of the engine is increased but there is no question that from a technical standpoint, having full control of the internal software within the ECU is the way to tune these engines. You can see from graphs on our website that when correctly mapped these engines produce very good power without huge increases in boost.

Our most popular conversion is using standard air filter, intercooler, turbo etc and only changing up pipe, and fitting a fully legal cat equipped exhaust system we make a minimum of 275bhp and this is using maximum boost of 16.4psi. This on our dyno which records the standard cars at 220-225bhp on UK fuel.

We appreciate that it is not so easy for the end user to tune as using a Unichip but in fact it is much faster to get a good map so in the long run is it safer and cheaper. We are also then able to give better support to our partners enabling them to do a better job.
DAVID-ECUTEK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 05:34 PM   #18
pegdrgr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25693
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Portland, Or
Vehicle:
2008 18x9" goodness
E85-380ftlbs @ 3100

Default

Once again I ask, how much is it likely to cost?
pegdrgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 05:49 PM   #19
T00N
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 10431
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: berkel, Netherlands
Vehicle:
2001 WRX Wagon
Mica Blue

Default

Aprox. 1100 dollars.
T00N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 09:14 PM   #20
EJ25
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 10768
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada... bent and broken 2000RS Rally
Default

will it work with the ej25 n/a ecu?????
EJ25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 09:20 PM   #21
WRSport
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2060
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Bay Area
Vehicle:
00 2.5RS Coupe
01 black boxster hardtop

Default

Support 99-01 2.5RS's !! both RS-T's and NA please.
WRSport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 09:36 PM   #22
silver arrow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Foriderp
Vehicle:
1965 MGB yellow
2008 Black Miata

Default

David Powers,

How do you make more money by selling it at $1100 to 300-400 tuners in the world, rather than 10,000-20,000 end-user copies at $700. If the analysis software is as easy to use as you say, why not sell single car use copies at the normal going rate of $700 (seems most piggy backs and reprogramed ecu's go for about that range). For the initial reprograming does the ecu have to come out of the car? What am I missing that you think you can recoup more money from selling it to tuners only, unless you get money from the tuners everytime they reprogram a car???
Help me understand this, because I would like to be able to reprogram my own car. People could share maps (as a baseline and used at ones own risk of course) You could have tuning forums on your site. This product could easily become dominate in the market. Dammit man sell me the program.
silver arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 10:03 PM   #23
David@Vishnu
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13004
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: I dont really remember
Vehicle:
2002 Pump Gas Homo

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by silver arrow
David Powers,

How do you make more money by selling it at $1100 to 300-400 tuners in the world, rather than 10,000-20,000 end-user copies at $700. If the analysis software is as easy to use as you say, why not sell single car use copies at the normal going rate of $700 (seems most piggy backs and reprogramed ecu's go for about that range). For the initial reprograming does the ecu have to come out of the car? What am I missing that you think you can recoup more money from selling it to tuners only, unless you get money from the tuners everytime they reprogram a car???
Help me understand this, because I would like to be able to reprogram my own car. People could share maps (as a baseline and used at ones own risk of course) You could have tuning forums on your site. This product could easily become dominate in the market. Dammit man sell me the program.
Good points and I was asking myself the same- But what if he wants to keep the original Subie code for himself and not allow others to have it? He could be in bed with FHI or worse Simon!! I hope the price will be better because it really looks like we will be paying for the DD to datalog then 1.1k for a remap of our original ecu!!! TXS and shiv do that for free!!! We wont be in possesion of anything but a factory ECU have no software to show but the DD we purchased separately in order to help them tune our original. I really hope its only like 50-75 bucks for a reprogram from a dealer with your provided DD logs
David@Vishnu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2002, 10:26 PM   #24
silvercharged
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 19295
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kick it out!
Default

Their game, their rules......

but looking like an extremely attractive alternative once it comes out....... First Unichip, then Utec, now this....wish they would make up my mind........
silvercharged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2002, 12:49 PM   #25
StephenDone
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 17994
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England (UK)
Vehicle:
99 Impreza UKTurbo
Midnight Blue

Default

>How do you make more money by selling it at $1100 to 300-400
>tuners in the world, rather than 10,000-20,000 end-user copies
>at $700. If the analysis software is as easy to use as you say,
>
Simple. In order to support 20,000 users who have never mapped an ECU before would require 500 telephone support operators all trained in explaining how to remap a complex device over the phone. Number one, we couldn't find this number of people skilled in the requisite areas. Number two, even if we did, paying their wages would raise the cost of the product to a point where it would no longer be affordable.

The alternative is to sell to well respected tuners, guaranteed to be experienced in tuning, and this is the option we have chosen to take.
StephenDone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
programming the stock remote AWDshenanigans Car Audio, Video & Security 3 06-01-2009 09:04 PM
removing utec do i need to get the stock ecu reflashed to stock phobos sti UTEC 12 09-07-2007 01:02 AM
What is the coldest/hottest temp mapped in the stock ecu? StiLimited Engine Management & Tuning 12 03-01-2007 03:03 PM
What bigger turbo will run on the stock ECU and the stock fuel system? Unabomber Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 8 09-19-2005 11:44 AM
Changing the stock ECU parameters! Kevin Thomas Normally Aspirated Powertrain 29 12-14-2000 01:20 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.