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Old 03-08-2014, 03:21 PM   #1
soundsofsnow
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Default Rebuilt: Won't start. spark, air and only part fuel...

My Rebuilt motor won't start. while I await for a Subaru select monitor ( in hopes it'll help), maybe someone here might have an idea as to why.


2004 Subaru Forester Xt, 5 speed. (All parts are stock and from the old motor unless otherwise listed)

Specs:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brand new EJ255 Shortblock from subaru.
Fully rebuilt, machined, lashed etc... heads.
Subaru master gasket kit.
Arp head studs.
Walbro 255lph
Sti uppipe (05') with EGT Resistor mod done.
Newish, front oxygen sensor ( like 5 k miles and clean)
Vf39
08' Sti intercooler.
Grimmspeed Ecbs
Flow tested and cleaned stock yellow top injectors ( all even and near 550cc)
Gates racing timing belt kit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here Is what I have:
Timing done correctly.
Air. ( maf was working previously, is cleaned, and isn't throwing a code)
Spark on all 4.
injector noid light on all 4.
Fuel pressure on "in line" (43 psi) (correct)
Fuel coming out on "return" line.
Crank position sensor shows correct spec resistance.

No Engine codes (at least a simple obd II can read.)
Upon sitting for a bit, first turn, it'll chug twice or maybe thrice, then dead.
After this it won't chug other than the car turning over from the starter.

When I pull the plugs only the plugs on 1 and 2 have fuel on them and smell of gas.

Plugs 3 and 4 are both dry and don't smell of fuel.

Again the noid light test confirms the ecu is sending the signal and the injectors were flow tested.

It's possible the shop that tested the injectors broke them and didn't tell me.


I've checked resistance and voltage on the injector harnesses and crank position sensor, all within spec.

I'm pretty stumped at this point, why would I get fuel on cylinders 1 and 2 only?

for reference :

Driver side 2 -- 1 Pass side.
...............4 -- 3
Firewall.

Any ideas?

thanks in advance.



TL: DR I only have fuel on cylinders 1 and 2, everything else checks out. what's up?
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:57 PM   #2
Razgeiz
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Have you tried swapping the injectors around to see if the problem follows?

If it does you got bad injectors and its time to get some bigger injectors at least you could rule that out.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:01 PM   #3
soundsofsnow
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RazGeiz, I think that's my next step yes.

I'd probly knock down the shop's door that "tested" these...

Any other Ideas?

Could a main relay or the crank position sensor cause this? (even though they showed the correct resistance, could they still be bad?)
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:36 PM   #4
Razgeiz
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To be honest I don't know. I'm still a semi noob when it comes to subies.

Given you checked the circuits for voltage/resistance I would say your issue isn't there.

Once you swap the injectors and the problem doesn't follow the injector I would look into making sure fuel can flow thru the rails highly unlikely but could be clogged!
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:10 PM   #5
soundsofsnow
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anyone else? Wouldn't it start on 2 cylinders?
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:06 PM   #6
Colton Brady
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I second the idea of swapping the injectors around and go from there. Maybe the connectors for the injectors in 3 and 4 are bad?
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:51 PM   #7
soundsofsnow
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Well it's been a bit of time as i've been busy but I got around to swapping the injectors last night, fuel was in both injector housings/cylinders etc.. Swapped the injectors of 2-4 only, charged my battery to about 12.7 v and slept on it. The next day ( today) I turned it over and first crank it turned over and ran. Albeit, under 900 rpms and it was chugging rough for a few seconds. About this time I realized i'd just left my PS/AlT belt loose so that was squealing, and about 10 sec. later the idle mellowed out and i turned it off to fix the belt etc...

go back to fire it up and it won't go now. . . . nothing was touched but the alt belt...

WTF.


p.s. Fuel is getting to all 4 cylinders i'm 75% sure. This is looking more like a spark possible issue even though I showed spark on all 4 awhile back.

Two Ideas: Will the battery Voltage affect startup?
If the injectors are stuck open, would it start?
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:59 PM   #8
Andrewxxcarlson
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Mmmm...where's the tune?? Same tune prior to blown motor? Before and after flows of these injectors? Possibility of tuner scaling dirty injectors that aren't flowing as much as they are now?
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:11 AM   #9
soundsofsnow
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Tune was stock, as was the motor.

Now it's different and yes that'd be something i need a tune for (bigger turbo, IC, DP, and ECBS) but to start it should be fine and it did start once...

The injectors were sent off to a local shop to be cleaned and flow tested, I was told i'd get before and after flow charts but when I picked them up they didn't have them on hand and only said it was about 550cc. and all even. Obviously this was a mistake to not get flow charts but they're a reputable shop.

Needless to say, i'll be calling them in the morning. . . If anything, these are broken and stuck open flooding the cylinders.
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:12 AM   #10
Shiftace420
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What was your method for testing for spark?
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:12 AM   #11
Andrewxxcarlson
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Damn... ^^ that would concern me as well.

*the shop not having the paperwork..*
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:30 AM   #12
2Fast4U1DAY
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If your plugs smell of fuel and are wet, its obviously either an injector problem or you have a wiring issue (a short on the ground side of the circuit) keeping those cylinders injectors stuck open.
Did you try to having someone crank it over with the plugs out on those cylinders and the injectors unplugged to see if theres a bunch of raw fuel built up in those cylinders?
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:03 AM   #13
soundsofsnow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftace420 View Post
What was your method for testing for spark?
First the Lazy way, pulled plugs and coils, put plug threads on the block, cranked, and saw spark.

Then I took Voltage readings from the harness and they were withing spec ( I have the FSM and i've gone though most the troubleshooing steps)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
If your plugs smell of fuel and are wet, its obviously either an injector problem or you have a wiring issue (a short on the ground side of the circuit) keeping those cylinders injectors stuck open.
Did you try to having someone crank it over with the plugs out on those cylinders and the injectors unplugged to see if theres a bunch of raw fuel built up in those cylinders?
I pulled the plugs and let it air out for an hour or two, when I pulled the injectors still had some gas in the injector cylinder ( the the combustion chamber, i mean the housing for the cylinder, that's expected as the rails were still hooked up though.)

I did notice in the injector Harness plugs 1 side ( inside the plug) was pushed in further than the other, all of them were like this however so i assumed that was supposed to be like that... hmmm..

I did take voltage/resistance readings from the above. Harness was getting the correct Volts and the injectors are within spec, but i'm not sure if they can be within spec and still mechanically be broken...

hmmm...




p.s. thanks for all the responses so far!
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:01 AM   #14
2Fast4U1DAY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundsofsnow View Post

First the Lazy way, pulled plugs and coils, put plug threads on the block, cranked, and saw spark.

Then I took Voltage readings from the harness and they were withing spec ( I have the FSM and i've gone though most the troubleshooing steps)

I pulled the plugs and let it air out for an hour or two, when I pulled the injectors still had some gas in the injector cylinder ( the the combustion chamber, i mean the housing for the cylinder, that's expected as the rails were still hooked up though.)

I did notice in the injector Harness plugs 1 side ( inside the plug) was pushed in further than the other, all of them were like this however so i assumed that was supposed to be like that... hmmm..

I did take voltage/resistance readings from the above. Harness was getting the correct Volts and the injectors are within spec, but i'm not sure if they can be within spec and still mechanically be broken...

hmmm...

p.s. thanks for all the responses so far!
For starters you need to understand that there will always have a constant 12VDC supplied as the injectors are ground switched by the ECU. The ECU supplies ground to the circuit to complete said circuit which is what makes the injectors pulse. That said its entirely possible to have your voltage and resistance values check out but still have a short on the ground side of the circuit causing the injectors to stick open without the signal from the ECU.

Secondly under no circumstances should there be puddled fuel in the injector housing (even if you pull the rail with injectors still attached to them) as injectors "mist" fuel into the cylinder head just prior to the intake valve opening so there never should be a point for fuel to puddle in the housings. The injectors could show to be in "spec" but if there is an intermittent coil issue inside the injector it may not show under pressure but give you all the symptoms you speak of when the pintle is pulsed. Hence the word intermittent

The puddled fuel in the injector housing tells me theres a dead short on the ground circuit or the injectors are bad causing you a major headache.

Last edited by 2Fast4U1DAY; 03-21-2014 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:13 AM   #15
soundsofsnow
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thanks, i think you may be right on that and i'll look into both grounds and possible re-testing/replacing of injectors.

on a note, when I say fuel inside, that was from removing the injector(side feed) from the rail and the rail still had some fuel left in it, just enough to coat the walls.

as for the ecu grounding bit, a blinking noid light test should mean it's grounding correctly. (tested, it did)
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:23 AM   #16
soundsofsnow
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I just wanted to follow up on the issue: It's been solved.

The Culprit was the injectors. Even Though they had been "professionally" cleaned and flow tested with good and even flow... I realized I was getting either too much fuel or too little.

I had the injectors retested and 3 of 4 were bad. Turns out the shop that had done them had a lot of made up answers involving a 3rd party shop that did the actual testing etc...

Long story short: Old injectors were "tested" as good, ( resistance tests were within spec) but they turned out to be bad.

New injectors ( used and flow tested/cleaned by another shop) and it fired up first try.

thanks for anyone's help who contributed.
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