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View Poll Results: Which one would you have bought?
2014 STI 32 40.51%
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:52 PM   #51
Amoul39
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I find it funny how everyone digs on the new body styles as soon as they come out. The same talk happened each time Subaru changed up body styles, and give it a year and everyone is in love! People talked so badly about the GRs when they came out, and now they are the most favorite. Personally the new body style is sleek and attractive looking. The pictures did the car no justice. Once I saw it in person, I have to say it is nice. I am actually going from the 2011 STI limited to the the new WRX limited mainly due to a lot of traveling. the MPGs are hard to give up and still have a fun car to drive. Plus the interior IS way better with more features, better sound system, and better GPS. Two thumbs up to the 2015!
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:54 PM   #52
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Oh, and once they drop the new FA engine into the STI.... ill be going back. The old EJ is way out dated.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
Here is a graphic example of understeer:

http://lifeonunleaded.com/videos/wat...er-off-a-cliff

Personally, I've come to prefer a car with slight understeer when pushing the limit (no pun intended). Never having driven the car in the video, I wonder if the M3 has this feedback, or if it always feels so good one never gets warning in time to reel it back.

If the new WRX/STi has the handling widely touted, is it so good that it will lull the average driver into overdriving it with similar consequences. With your experience, some track time with a new WRX/STi would allow a professional's opinion on their handling... and provide feedback on their limits, and warnings about real-world limits.

The review here: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rx_comparison/

to me. is full of contradictions that do not convey that the WRX has dangerous understeer. It was two seconds faster than the "way more fun" and "better balanced" Focus, for one. And the author, after repeating Probst's "plow straight into the dirt" remark, went on to say "I drove the car and the car just told me to drive faster, lap after lap." Senseless, to me. An opinion from you here, based on driving the WRX yourself, would be appreciated.

In autox, I've always relied on my Suby's AWD characteristics to pull me around a corner under power, after braking sharply to enter correctly. It sound like the "understeer" talked about is from incorrect corner entry speeds... no?
As I said, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a bit of understeer, especially for a street car.

Again, I only took issue with someone saying it didn't. It certainly does. That doesn't make it any less fun to drive on the street, and is only likely less-preferable to seasoned guys on the track.

Any serious understeer or oversteer is, by definition, the result of over-driving the car, yes. However, leaving aside that drivers obviously find oversteer more "fun", the benefit of a neutral (if not a bit tail happy) car, is the ability to rotate the car with the throttle. Intentionally, if not momentarily, over-driving for the purpose of tucking the nose or otherwise adjusting your line. In a relatively easy to drive street car, that can be a significant advantage, be it autox or track. You'd be hard pressed to find a guy racing street cars that prefers a pushy car. Obviously, in a car that is much, much harder to drive at the limit (any number of formula cars, for example), you're more likely to find someone who likes a bit of initial push, which they can counter with throttle if need be.

And yup, every M3 since the E46 has had a good bit of understeer dialed into it from the factory. However, with 50/50 weight distribution and RWD, eliminating it is generally speaking a square tire setup away. Which is why you tend to see more RWD heavily tracked, as, quite honestly, the more experienced you become, the more bored you are of a car that plows around when pushed. There's a reason the 20 year track veteran is in a Miata, and S2000, an E30 or 36, 911, etc. The constant search for a balanced chassis (cheap consumables of course too )

Again, I didn't say it understeered at the limit as necessarily a bad thing. But don't talk out of your ass (not you, him), and claim it doesn't, because you didn't feel any understeer as you briskly drove down your favorite road. As you shouldn't, because (hopefully), you're not approaching those limits in that setting.

Not quite sure what the purpose of that teenager being an idiot video was. Undulating road, pushy car, asshattery driving and the kid is off the road. Pushy or tail happy matters not. He'd have backed into that rock. 70 or whatever around a 50 MPH corner means an off...be it plowing off, or oversteering off. Can't fix stupid.

Last edited by SoapBox; 04-30-2014 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:02 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
As I said, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a bit of understeer, especially for a street car.

Again, I only took issue with someone saying it didn't. It certainly does. That doesn't make it any less fun to drive on the street, and is only likely less-preferable to seasoned guys on the track.

Any serious understeer or oversteer is, by definition, the result of over-driving the car, yes. However, leaving aside that drivers obviously find oversteer more "fun", the benefit of a neutral (if not a bit tail happy) car, is the ability to rotate the car with the throttle. Intentionally, if not momentarily, over-driving for the purpose of tucking the nose or otherwise adjusting your line. In a relatively easy to drive street car, that can be a significant advantage, be it autox or track. You'd be hard pressed to find a guy racing street cars that prefers a pushy car. Obviously, in a car that is much, much harder to drive at the limit (any number of formula cars, for example), you're more likely to find someone who likes a bit of initial push, which they can counter with throttle if need be.

And yup, every M3 since the E46 has had a good bit of understeer dialed into it from the factory. However, with 50/50 weight distribution and RWD, eliminating it is generally speaking a square tire setup away. Which is why you tend to see more RWD heavily tracked, as, quite honestly, the more experienced you become, the more bored you are of a car that plows around when pushed. There's a reason the 20 year track veteran is in a Miata, and S2000, an E30 or 36, 911, etc. The constant search for a balanced chassis (cheap consumables of course too )

Again, I didn't say it understeered at the limit as necessarily a bad thing. But don't talk out of your ass (not you, him), and claim it doesn't, because you didn't feel any understeer as you briskly drove down your favorite road. As you shouldn't, because (hopefully), you're not approaching those limits in that setting.

Not quite sure what the purpose of that teenager being an idiot video was. Undulating road, pushy car, asshattery driving and the kid is off the road. Pushy or tail happy matters not. He'd have backed into that rock. 70 or whatever around a 50 MPH corner means an off...be it plowing off, or oversteering off. Can't fix stupid.
All good input, filling in my missing.

The last is as I thought... stupid driving, not the car. The video clearly shows the car not responding to the steering input, and the consequences. It is a Warning of the highest order, to stay inside the limits of car and road. Although, as the commentary pointed out, a better driver using that car's capabilities could have made the curve... what you said.

You should start a thread... a serious, no BS allowed, Basic Elements of the Track. I have friends and a B-in-L who are track instructors... but I've never felt knowledgeable enough to participate. Plus, although my STi was basically capable, I knew it wasn't ready either. Maybe this car, with better brakes, and me mentally prepared. I suspect the '15s will bring similar thoughts to many more.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SeeeeeYa View Post
All good input, filling in my missing.

The last is as I thought... stupid driving, not the car. The video clearly shows the car not responding to the steering input, and the consequences. It is a Warning of the highest order, to stay inside the limits of car and road. Although, as the commentary pointed out, a better driver using that car's capabilities could have made the curve... what you said.

You should start a thread... a serious, no BS allowed, Basic Elements of the Track. I have friends and a B-in-L who are track instructors... but I've never felt knowledgeable enough to participate. Plus, although my STi was basically capable, I knew it wasn't ready either. Maybe this car, with better brakes, and me mentally prepared. I suspect the '15s will bring similar thoughts to many more.
Summit Point has got to be in your backyard right? Get out there! No experience required. Only one way to learn!

Your car is definitely up to the task for beginning instruction. You can easily go into a novice group with a stock car, although a pad upgrade might be in the near future.

Both Main and Shenandoah are a blast. You'll get hooked.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:44 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
Summit Point has got to be in your backyard right? Get out there! No experience required. Only one way to learn!

Your car is definitely up to the task for beginning instruction. You can easily go into a novice group with a stock car, although a pad upgrade might be in the near future.

Both Main and Shenandoah are a blast. You'll get hooked.
Now you've done it... contacted BinL.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:06 PM   #57
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Randy Pobst, former racer and Motor Trend's test driver, said the '15 STi/WRX is still plagued by understeer. The handling of the '15's has been hyped by journalists.

People have done full coil-overs kits, sway bars, bushings, end-links, chassis bracing, etc. and all STi/WRX (with the exception of the first generation compact 2 door, like the 22B derivatives) STILL UNDERSTEER quite noticeably.

If you think Subaru was able to snuff out the understeer in the largest 4 door rendition of the STi/WRX to date, you are nothing short of gullible.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:25 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by DIYFIX View Post
Randy Pobst, former racer and Motor Trend's test driver, said the '15 STi/WRX is still plagued by understeer. The handling of the '15's has been hyped by journalists. People have done full coil-overs kits, sway bars, bushings, end-links, chassis bracing, etc. and all STi/WRX (with the exception of the first generation compact 2 door, like the 22B derivatives) STILL UNDERSTEER quite noticeably. If you think Subaru was able to snuff out the understeer in the largest 4 door rendition of the STi/WRX to date, you are nothing short of gullible.
Is this your first awd car?

That's the nature of the drivetrain.

And if people have done that many suspension mods and can't neutralize the handling then they either bought the wrong parts or have no idea how to setup suspension. Probably both.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:26 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYFIX View Post
Randy Pobst, former racer and Motor Trend's test driver, said the '15 STi/WRX is still plagued by understeer. The handling of the '15's has been hyped by journalists.

People have done full coil-overs kits, sway bars, bushings, end-links, chassis bracing, etc. and all STi/WRX (with the exception of the first generation compact 2 door, like the 22B derivatives) STILL UNDERSTEER quite noticeably.

If you think Subaru was able to snuff out the understeer in the largest 4 door rendition of the STi/WRX to date, you are nothing short of gullible.
And how many people who buy this car are going to drive it at a tight track like the Streets Of Willow Springs and push the car to the limits that Randy Pobst can? If you read other reviews they say understeer is improved, but that is because the people driving the car are not driving it like Randy Pobst. Even at Leguna Seca. I have seen reviews where some journalists said the understeer is much more mild with the new STI, but again, these guys are not Rany Pobst. Nobody on this forum is Randy Pobst.

The majority of people who buy this car won't notice understeer in most normal driving situations or even on a mountain road.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:31 PM   #60
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I wanted a wagon so the choice was easy.
Same here.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:56 PM   #61
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Nobody on this forum is Randy Pobst.
.
Stop saying stuff like this. Any idiot over driving the car is going to induce understeer. It doesn't take any talent. Quite the contrary.

As a novice at a track day, you are much more likely to over drive the car. I've personally seen WRX's with the tread of their front tires literally smeared off at their first track days. Because the idiot behind the wheel couldn't seem to grasp that he needed to slow down through the corner vs. cranking in more wheel angle. I've personally instructed many, many students who will plow and plow and plow around all damn day if you weren't in their ear about it.

Hell, go to an autox. You'll see countless newbs plowing around all over...butchering their front shoulders.

It absolutely, 100% does not take a professional driver (even any talent at all) to appreciate a car that doesn't have a balanced chassis at the limit.

Seriously, you sound silly. All you're doing is demonstrating to people that do know, that you have no experience on the subject.

Last edited by SoapBox; 05-01-2014 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
Stop saying stuff like this. Any idiot over driving the car is going to induce understeer. It doesn't take any talent.

Quite the contrary. As a novice at a track day, you are much more likely to over drive the car. I've personally seen WRX's with the tread of their front tires literally smeared off at their first track days. Because the idiot behind the wheel couldn't seem to grasp that he needed to slow down through the corner vs. cranking in more wheel angle.

Hell, go to an autox. You'll see countless newbs plowing around all over...butchering their front shoulders.

It absolutely, 100% does not take a professional driver (even any talent at all) to appreciate a car that doesn't have a balanced chassis at the limit.

Stop saying it. All you're doing is demonstrating to people that you have no experience on the subject. You sound silly.
People that have no idea what they are doing at the track should be driving a car with understeer vs oversteer. Neutral car would be great, but how many stock family sedans are neutral again?

And again you are talking at the track. 90%+ of these cars will never see the track. Which was my whole point that went over your head.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:12 PM   #63
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People that have no idea what they are doing at the track should be driving a car with understeer vs oversteer. Neutral car would be great, but how many stock family sedans are neutral again?

And again you are talking at the track. 90%+ of these cars will never see the track. Which was my whole point that went over your head.
Yes, we are talking about the track.. Because that's when understeer occurs. Not on the way to the 7-11. That's what we're talking about!

I was just suggesting you not post about topics you don't have experience with. But by all means, we can continue. And I didn't miss your point. You've backpedaled, again. Stop saying it only matters to people like Randy. That's just plain dumb.

To your latest post, sure it's safer to start in a car that pushes.

But I disagree, and most other instructors would do the same. It's much better for the driver, as a student, to learn on a neutral car. You'd become a MUCH more competent driver from a car control standpoint in a Miata vs. a WRX. That's a certainty.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:16 PM   #64
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One more thing Pobst turned off Torque Vectoring. That would have helped with understeer. How do you think Ford makes the Focus ST oversteer? Magic beans?

From some other reviews:

Quote:
The Subaru WRX has long been one the few sports cars that consistently exceeds its published performance credentials in the real world. Case in point: No matter how hard we pushed the WRX, traction under power was beyond reproach, and understeer (where the car pushes straight into corners) went unnoticed. The latter is an impressive feat for an all-wheel-drive sports car, particularly one fitted with electric-assisted steering.
http://www.snailperformance.com/1/po...ubaru-sti.html

Quote:
I was waiting for the car to understeer like the STI’s in the past have always done. As I was about half way into the turn, the new STI was not understeering so I rolled back into the power to see if the STI would allow it and to my amazement I was able to apply power with no understeer.
There are more. And then you can find the reports where people were able to make it understeer under power too. I suspect the torque vectoring really works and this is why some found it easy to induce understeer and others said that is was non-existent or mild. Even on the same track... Pobst probably should have tried the car in track mode..
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:16 PM   #65
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As I've said 50 times now: The fact that it understeers isn't a bad thing, at all. I've owned 4 WRXs, tracked them all, loved them all, and will own more.

But stop acting butt hurt when someone brings up understeer.

It may have no effect on you. Fine. But stop defending an undefendable position.

The car understeers. That is a fact. Let it go. Both cars I own now understeered rather heavily from the factory too. I ain't mad.

Last edited by SoapBox; 05-01-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:19 PM   #66
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One more thing Pobst turned off Torque Vectoring. That would have helped with understeer. How do you think Ford makes the Focus ST oversteer? Magic beans?
? The ST understeers too in steady state and on throttle cornering (about mid corner off). In certainly situations, mainly entry off throttle, it rotates nicely. You can do similar things in a WRX via big rear bars and driving style.

Again, it's very hard to talk to you about something you don't understand because you've never done it. How about you get out on the track, in anything...it will be much easier to talk about chassis dynamics with you at that point.

Or you could keep going...
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:22 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
As I've said 50 times now: The fact that it understeers isn't a bad thing, at all. I've owned 4 WRXs, tracked them all, loved them all, and will own more.

But stop acting butt hurt when someone brings up understeer.

It may have no effect on you. Fine. But stop defending an undefendable position.

The car understeers. That is a fact. Let it go.
LOL, I am trying to have a conversation with you. When I show reports from people running the car at Leguna Seca saying they could not induce understeer you claim I am butthurt and then try to use petty insults to make yourself feel better.

The thing that is obvious about you is that you never like to be wrong about anything. I don't have that problem.

That is how you learn But I suppose some people just need more time to mature and realize this.

I have been to the track several times. I am 100% a grade A novice, but I go to have fun. Nor pretend I am Randy Pobst.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:32 PM   #68
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What a douche nozzle. Jesus.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:51 PM   #69
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There's this thing called the ignore list... Use it, it works wonders.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:22 PM   #70
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All I was saying is that you can't escape understeer if you decide to purchase a WRX/STi. A 4 door, front engined, AWD saloon is just going to push through the corners if you overdrive the car. The rule with these cars is: "In the corner like an angel, out like a demon." You have to slow down to a manageable speed coming in the corner, but you can get on the power very early and claw the car out of insane turns. Its called, "grip driving." This applies to the '15 WRX and STi, they are no better in that regard.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:30 PM   #71
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Trading in my 2012 WRX hatch for a 2014 STI hatch today.

So if you ask me about the '15s I will tell you they blow.
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Old 05-02-2014, 08:57 PM   #72
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Trading in my 2012 WRX hatch for a 2014 STI hatch today. So if you ask me about the '15s I will tell you they blow.
Hahahahahahahaha
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Old 05-03-2014, 09:33 PM   #73
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Trading in my 2012 WRX hatch for a 2014 STI hatch today.

So if you ask me about the '15s I will tell you they blow.
im with u brotha
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Old 05-04-2014, 09:06 AM   #74
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Trading in my 2012 WRX hatch for a 2014 STI hatch today.

So if you ask me about the '15s I will tell you they blow.
Oh ? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
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