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Old 06-13-2014, 01:59 PM   #51
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Or my cynical theory that his patents arnt that "Good".
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:01 PM   #52
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First off, I charge my car regularly at a 480v DC fast charger. Takes all of 10-15 minutes to pick up free electrons. I watch the KWh used when I'm there. If it's a long charge (where my batteries are close to dead) I might be there 20-25 minutes and that means about $1.00 in electricity, and that takes me 70-80 miles. So I get 2 years of this for free, but even when I have to pay for it it's going to be small fraction of what gasoline would cost. There is another network of charging stations (I get free access to those starting in July), that if I use those, it's $1 for members, $2 for non-members. That's 240v, per hour. So you are out picking up groceries, or other necessities, so you plug in for 30 minutes, an hour, whatever, that whole dollar they charge you is going to break the bank I just renewed for home electricity and I'm now paying .091 per Kwh. Commercial rates are much lower (I know someone who does that for a living) so even though they only charge you a buck an hour they are turning a profit (charging networks).

A home based 240v charger, well those are a whopping $750 now. None of it is expensive. I was spending $50-75 a month on diesel in my JSW, and it was pretty fuel efficient (averaged 40MPG). I think now I'm spending maybe $5. When my 2 years of free charging stations runs out, I'll probably be spending somewhere around $10-15 a month. A fraction of the cost of fossil fuel.
A car that drives 20000 miles a year for 5 years and gets 30mpg will spend ~$12k total in gas. So, my XV will cost me, after 5 years in gas and loan and purchase, about $34k.

Quote:
Bring on the $35k Tesla. If that dude can make something in the 0-60MPH 5second range, I might just have to buy one.
And you hit the price that I would consider one. The biggest issue with me is range for longer trips that exceed the range of the current batteries. If you can charge them up rather quick, and power stations are plentiful along the route, then it's a deal. (Some of my trips are about 1200 miles each way).

--kC
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:28 PM   #53
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My take on this is that many people view Musk's idea as it exists in a vacuum. He is essentially trying to spur more investment from other manufacturers and even startups to invest in battery cars. FREE OF HIGHLY POLITICALLY CHARGED GOVERNMENT INVESTMENT.

Fiat's boss' comments likely led to Musk's little speech. Telling consumers not to buy your product solely because its production costs are too high to maintain a viable business model hurts ALL electric cars including Tesla. I think consumer confidence is 100% of the US market. No confidence in something and that something dies. Musk is propping up the electric car as something worth being confident in for the generation ahead, and is offering to lay out a blueprint for manufacturers and entrepreneurs to use. He IS a businessman. His business is selling boutique electric cars for affluent Americans. But shouldering all the costs will hurt in the long run, and boutique cars in small markets is not conducive to growth. If middle-class working Americans do not bother buying the cheapest electric cars, why would they bother buying an expensive Tesla?

So, that said, I will repeat:The government should stay far far away if electric cars are to succeed.

This is not about R&D patents, it's about bothering with starting R&D at all. And many top manufacturers are half-ass about it because it's so far been, "MEH, WHY, NO SUCCESS, LOSE $$$?"

I'm no boner for electric cars, but I'm also no hater, either. Just as I'm no hater on gas sucking trucks for a single person to cruise around in without EVER using the truck as designed because truck pretty and shiny. Perhaps electric trucks should be the new focus for personal electric vehicles? Lots of torque from batteries and lots of room under that truck bed to store them as well as easy battery swap out. Trucks are the number one selling vehicle in America, and always has been, would be a better platform than what is currently available. Many battery would extend the range and make longer trips possible. I dunno, just thoughts. And Musk has a lot of folk thinking at the moment...

my twopence.
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:08 PM   #54
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The biggest issue with me is range for longer trips that exceed the range of the current batteries. If you can charge them up rather quick, and power stations are plentiful along the route, then it's a deal. (Some of my trips are about 1200 miles each way).

--kC
Edmunds is doing a long term review (1 year) of a Model S right now.
They've shown a few times that if you live on the west coast it's actually pretty easy to live with because of all the supercharger stations, even if you occasionally travel over 1000 miles.

Now they're about to do an L.A. to New York and back trip.
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s...oast-trip.html

Soon there will be enough supercharger stations to make an electric car a real option if they can get the purchase price of the cars down.

Last edited by justincredible; 06-13-2014 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:40 PM   #55
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Didnt GM make a fantastically practical solution to the EV with the VOLT for 40k? It seems like nobody cared.
not a fair comparison really.

The Model S compares against 5 series and the like for a bit more money.

The Volt compares against other compact cars for a lot more money.

volt more of a stop gap GM solution with a stale design. Tesla bottom up fresher design.

list can go on and on.

plus at people trying to think that Elon is inherently an evil businessman and has some nefarious means to make money from this move.
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:44 PM   #56
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For those who missed this

http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
not a fair comparison really.

The Model S compares against 5 series and the like for a bit more money.

The Volt compares against other compact cars for a lot more money.

volt more of a stop gap GM solution with a stale design. Tesla bottom up fresher design.

list can go on and on.

plus at people trying to think that Elon is inherently an evil businessman and has some nefarious means to make money from this move.
Then there is the "safest car ever tested" and "only car to break the roof crush machine" thing as well
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:00 PM   #58
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For those who missed this

http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap
Oh snap!

From a previous thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO
Outrun the M5 eh, I would race you in the M5 across the country.

You would lose by a long long way. You can cross the country in an Tesla, no doubt, as long as you stick to the roads service EV

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Originally Posted by Snicker88
It does not take an M5 to outrun the Tesla S on long trip, any stock WRX will do. Heck, any stock Impreza will do.

Looks like that's going to change.

CN: Future option at Tesla Supercharger Stations will be to recharge your Model S for free while you wait, or have the battery pack swapped in 90seconds while you sit in your car for a fee.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:52 PM   #59
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If the Volt sells for 10K less than it does now,$37K, and you can get some government incentives then I very well could be in a family with only 1 performance car. For the few trips a year I would make out of its battery range the car will still get 38mpg.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:59 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
not a fair comparison really.

The Model S compares against 5 series and the like for a bit more money.

The Volt compares against other compact cars for a lot more money.

volt more of a stop gap GM solution with a stale design. Tesla bottom up fresher design.

list can go on and on.

plus at people trying to think that Elon is inherently an evil businessman and has some nefarious means to make money from this move.
model s / 5 series price is about the same as volt / ford fusion or whatever. You can get creative to sway this anyway you like, the base tesla is cheaper than an M5 sure, but in general the car is expensive for a sports sedan. In general the volt is expensive for a small car but no more so than the tesla.

Other wise yes the tesla is a much cooler and hipper design. Im not sure the list goes on and on after that. If you value fuction over form the volt is superior. You can comute as a pure EV and take long trips with conventional EV.

I don't have anything agianst the Tesla. Id rock one as a daily drive in a heart beat, but I dont think it is quite as revolutionary as some would imply. It is the bang&olfsen of the green car world.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:01 PM   #61
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Agree. The only thing wrong with the Volt is the price. Even the Prius plug in starts at 30K.

GM choose to make the Volt fail from the beginning. GM make so much on trucks they have never made a good compact car, they just don't care.

I am the perfect candidate for an EV, my commute is 9 miles round trip.

Peace,

Greg
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:06 PM   #62
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The 2016 volt is suppose to be $10,000 cheaper than the 2014 model.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:14 PM   #63
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maybe Ill get a gen2 volt to confuse the hell out of everybody I know. I am a bit technologically curious for these things.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:30 PM   #64
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plus at people trying to think that Elon is inherently an evil businessman and has some nefarious means to make money from this move.
I'm not saying he's inherently evil, but don't think for a second that he did this just because he's a cool guy who wants to make a statement.

He may own a controlling interest in Tesla, but that doesn't mean there aren't other stockholders who he has to answer to, and giving away an income stream will definitely make people with a stake demand answers of him.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:34 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
plus at people trying to think that Elon is inherently an evil businessman and has some nefarious means to make money from this move.
It's not inherently evil to want to offload some development costs or increase EV market penetration for your own company's benefit, nor is it inherently evil to want to make more money. We're simply stating it isn't an altruistic move, because it is very likely not. There is some motivation there deeper than just "I'm a nice guy". There ALWAYS is.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by justincredible View Post
Edmunds is doing a long term review (1 year) of a Model S right now.
They've shown a few times that if you live on the west coast it's actually pretty easy to live with because of all the supercharger stations, even if you occasionally travel over 1000 miles.

Now they're about to do an L.A. to New York and back trip.
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s...oast-trip.html

Soon there will be enough supercharger stations to make an electric car a real option if they can get the purchase price of the cars down.
But then you're still on the west coast

Im here on the right coast.

--kC
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:40 PM   #67
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aschen: I stand corrected on the Model S price vs. the 5 series. there is a hefty 40% price premium. but thats before you factor in incentives that can be as high as $12.5k.

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Originally Posted by samagon View Post
I'm not saying he's inherently evil, but don't think for a second that he did this just because he's a cool guy who wants to make a statement.

He may own a controlling interest in Tesla, but that doesn't mean there aren't other stockholders who he has to answer to, and giving away an income stream will definitely make people with a stake demand answers of him.
the stockholders are infuriated. absolutely infuriated.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
It's not inherently evil to want to offload some development costs or increase EV market penetration for your own company's benefit, nor is it inherently evil to want to make more money. We're simply stating it isn't an altruistic move, because it is very likely not. There is some motivation there deeper than just "I'm a nice guy". There ALWAYS is.
or it could be because he wants his battery plant to have demand, or he just wants electric cars to be more widespread because it's better for the industry and makes electric chargers way more common.

Quote:
Yesterday, one of the more interesting people in Silicon Valley did one of the more interesting things that the car industry has seen in a while. Elon Musk, the C.E.O. of Tesla, opened up all of his patents. “Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology,” he wrote in a blog post. Tesla’s competitors can now freely take advantage of its batteries, chargers, or sunroofs.

Musk isn’t entirely an altruist. Tesla makes electric cars, and will only succeed if the entire electric-vehicle industry succeeds. It needs other companies to help build charging stations, to improve batteries, and to change the perception that only rich guys in open-collared dress shirts drive these things. Tesla wins if its patents help Ford improve its batteries, which then leads Ford to make more electric vehicles, which then leads someone else to start a chain of charging stations. If open patents can promote standardization, that would likely mean faster innovation for all. An electric car is made up of thousands of parts; if more companies begin using the same ones, the process of putting cars together becomes simpler.

Musk’s move isn’t entirely unprecedented, either. In 1959, Volvo shared its seat-belt technology. In the nineteen seventies, General Motors shared innovations on catalytic converters. But what Musk is doing is broader: he’s opening up everything. It’s a risky move but a shrewd one. It’s one that wouldn’t make a lot of sense for a lot of companies. But it does for Tesla. The company’s stock has doubled in the past year, but the industry is struggling. Musk’s biggest electic-car-entrepreneur-frenemy, Shai Agassi, led his company, Better Place, into bankruptcy a year ago. It’s a good moment for the industry to get a jolt.

“Putting in long hours for a corporation is hard,” Musk said on Thursday during a conference call. “Putting in long hours for a cause is easy.” What exactly is that cause? It’s bringing clean cars to the people, of course. But it’s also, it seems now, showing the world a new way to think about innovation.

And that is what’s most provocative about Musk’s decision. In his post yesterday, Musk wrote, “When I started out with my first company, Zip2, I thought patents were a good thing and worked hard to obtain them. And maybe they were good long ago, but too often these days they serve merely to stifle progress, entrench the positions of giant corporations and enrich those in the legal profession, rather than the actual inventors.”

This isn’t the view of all of Silicon Valley. Apple, for one, is almost as adept at patent litigation as it is at product innovation. But it’s an idea that’s becoming more prominent, and the ideals of open-source collaboration—you build things and you share them freely—are held tightly among young coders. Anyone can license and use the Android operating system. Linux, Apache, Perl, and Mozilla are all considered open-source software, which anyone can contribute to and no one can fully own. Idealistic young lawyers work as public defenders. Idealistic young coders work on Linux. And Musk is hoping that idealistic young automotive engineers will want to work for Tesla.

Musk’s innovation is to share hardware, not software. Code is easy to share: it doesn’t really cost you anything to write it, beyond a computer and a power cord. Sunroofs are harder, since you need glass and other materials for each iteration. Then, since you’re dealing with stuff, innovations and improvement come more slowly. That’s one reason why the ideals of open collaboration have spread much more quickly among coders than among engineers in general. Most people who figure out new sunroofs want to be paid before their competitors can replicate their work.

Musk, though, clearly considers the tradeoff worthwhile. His competitors will surely copy things that will help them; this move probably makes his employees more desirable for competitors who want to poach them. But if Tesla can keep hiring and retaining engineers who are smarter than everyone else’s, imitation won’t really matter. By the time that a competitor has copied the sunroof, the Tesla folks will have built something better.

Musk can do whatever he wants at this point in his life. He’s got three successful companies, and Tesla has won nearly every available automobile-industry award. The man has no shortage of self-confidence. In a post about Musk, which followed up on a Profile, Tad Friend wrote, “Musk, who grew up in South Africa reading Isaac Asimov’s ‘Foundation’ series, sees himself as a hero tasked with the lonely burden of saving us all. His pet projects (space flight, electric transport) aim to buy us time to colonize Mars before we destroy Earth. There is something reproving about his blue-eyed stare, as if he’s come back after a spell on Gamma Nebula 7 and is disappointed to find us still burning hydrocarbons and chowing down at Cinnabon. Earthlings, repent!

Last edited by Indocti Discant; 06-13-2014 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:55 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by b4wantab View Post
Agree. The only thing wrong with the Volt is the price. Even the Prius plug in starts at 30K.

GM choose to make the Volt fail from the beginning. GM make so much on trucks they have never made a good compact car, they just don't care.

I am the perfect candidate for an EV, my commute is 9 miles round trip.

Peace,

Greg
You are a candidate for Prius PHV as well since it has a 9 mile range. The volt has a 38 mile range. Of course it costs more. You get 30 more miles or all electric and you get high performance (relatively) in electric mode unlike the Prius. Look at the sales numbers. The volt is doing better than the Prius. The Prius plug in was designed to get HOV access stickers in CA at the cheapest price. The Leaf, Volt and Model S all follow the same pattern in terms of sales so far.
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Old 06-14-2014, 04:01 PM   #69
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Didnt GM make a fantastically practical solution to the EV with the VOLT for 40k? It seems like nobody cared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b4wantab View Post
Agree. The only thing wrong with the Volt is the price.
Four seat design, poor headroom, and limited visibility are deal killers for many families. The Prius non-PHEV and LEAF do comparatively well in part because they are staid, practical designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sogah87 View Post
Hydrogen Powered Electric vehicles are the real future.... Or at least should be. The Honda Insight brought it to the table with what seems to be the most practical hydrogen car. Battery power is fine, it is just like everyone else is saying; Not enough range and too long to charge. Most people can't afford to have an electric car just for driving around town AND another car to make long distance trips!
No. Hydrogen is a pipe dream with no net benefit in CO2 relative to gasoline ICE vehicles. If you want to use CNG for transportation burn it in ICE long haul trucks instead of saddling the economy with a multi billion dollar hydrogen infrastructure that has no point.
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Old 06-14-2014, 04:13 PM   #70
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Four seat design, poor headroom, and limited visibility are deal killers for many families. The Prius non-PHEV and LEAF do comparatively well in part because they are staid, practical designs.



No. Hydrogen is a pipe dream with no net benefit in CO2 relative to gasoline ICE vehicles. If you want to use CNG for transportation burn it in ICE long haul trucks instead of saddling the economy with a multi billion dollar hydrogen infrastructure that has no point.
Hydrogen is a farce. Hey, let's use lots of energy manufacturing a fuel that is very energy poor! Then all we need to do is compress it to several hundred atm is a specially designed heavy insulated tank. Brilliant!
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:43 PM   #71
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Four seat design, poor headroom, and limited visibility are deal killers for many families. The Prius non-PHEV and LEAF do comparatively well in part because they are staid, practical designs.
For a family it definitely kills the volt, but the prius is pretty terrible in its own special ways as well. If I did not have a family I would far prefer the Volt and the people who own them are quite enamored with them. The seats were so much better for front driver and passenger. I would much rather have something like a highlander hybrid or nissan's new hybrid CUV that would allow me to carry some cargo as well. I am still waiting to see if Mitsubishi ever gets their outlander PHEV to market here. The new excuse is that the Feds want them to have better battery monitoring equipment to tell a driver if specific cells are about to fail.
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Old 06-15-2014, 03:07 PM   #72
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For a family it definitely kills the volt, but the prius is pretty terrible in its own special ways as well. If I did not have a family I would far prefer the Volt and the people who own them are quite enamored with them. The seats were so much better for front driver and passenger. I would much rather have something like a highlander hybrid or nissan's new hybrid CUV that would allow me to carry some cargo as well. I am still waiting to see if Mitsubishi ever gets their outlander PHEV to market here. The new excuse is that the Feds want them to have better battery monitoring equipment to tell a driver if specific cells are about to fail.
I would never buy a Volt over a Prius just because it's a Chevy. All of the things happening around the ignition recall is proof enough.
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Old 06-15-2014, 03:35 PM   #73
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I would never buy a Volt over a Prius just because it's a Chevy. All of the things happening around the ignition recall is proof enough.
the Toyota recalls aren't worrying to you?
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Old 06-15-2014, 04:35 PM   #74
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the Toyota recalls aren't worrying to you?
I'm taking into account what GM has done compared to Toyota during the big recalls for both companies. You don't see Toyota going around advertising to pay customers extra if they trade in their GM-brand vehicles at a Toyota dealership.
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Old 06-15-2014, 07:21 PM   #75
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I'm taking into account what GM has done compared to Toyota during the big recalls for both companies. You don't see Toyota going around advertising to pay customers extra if they trade in their GM-brand vehicles at a Toyota dealership.
Toyota did offer killer incentives to keep buyers motivated.
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