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Old 06-27-2014, 08:45 AM   #26
Hyper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat 4 Motorsport View Post
I have had issues with dual AVCS Tomei cams and Dual AVCS Kelfords.

Both instances the Tomei and Kelfords would not zero out upon start up and go fully retarded.


This!
Thank you, I thought we were the only ones with this problem

Agree on Cosworth, I've seen them break in half more than once

on the positive experience, I can note JUN cams, we have had great results with them in terms of quality and reliability - haven't seen a single JUN cam fail yet (knock on wood)
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:03 AM   #27
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Any idea on the time/window of the defective cams? I've had Kelford 280's for non-avcs heads (EJ205 heads) on my car for about 5 years, but only about 5k miles (sat in the garage most of the time). I'm at ~500whp and have had zero problems to date.

That said, I am pulling the motor and trans soon to cage and paint the car. I will pull the valve covers at that time and inspect.


Is there a mark/stamp/etc on the known sketchy Kelford cams that I can look for?


Thanks to MPS and IAG for bringing this to our attention.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:08 AM   #28
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They let go within 1000 miles from experience, if you've got 5k on yours, you'll be fine.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banshee04 View Post
Recently I just went through the same thing. Had a hunch about something wrong inside the heads as the driver side sure was making a lot of noise. I'm so glad that my suspicion was right and I didn't keep driving it.

Pulled the motor and I found that the intake cam had chewed through one of the buckets and the cam lobe was rounded off. Everything was correct when it came to lash, break-in,
Etc.

The cams I have though are neither Kelford or GSC's, but Crower 272's.

Here is the carnage:




ARG.
how many miles did you have on them?
I have a set of heads that just got done with supertech parts and crower cams.
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:26 AM   #30
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I haven't seen any BC cams with this failure. I've seen them with other issues, like bending and breaking.

Crower cams are... gross... that's the only way I can put it. Brand new cams with lobes not even from cylinder to cylinder, centerlines are often way off, etc. Usually you find very different compression from cylinder to cylinder on Crower cams. I avoid those like the plague.


For all those people sending me emails and PMs.

I have no idea if yours will fail. I can't give you any extra instructions or methods that will help prevent a failure. If I knew the answers to those questions, this thread would be "PREVENT CAM FAILURE BY DOING XXXXX" I'm not starting a ****-storm because I find them entertaining, I am getting this out there so other people with failures can get together and share information.

I'm hoping that together we can either find a fix or put enough pressure on the manufacturers that they acknowledge a problem and find a fix.
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:30 AM   #31
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Individual success stories do us no good and provide no data. I have plenty of builds that had no issue.

We need data on failures. So if you don't have a failure story and you did everything by the book, then you have no data for us.

If you have a success story and you did a non-typical break in, then share your break in procedure.
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:30 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
Stock vs GSC S2 cam lobe front to back.






How the GSC contact

thanks Fuji. Those pictures show just how centered the lobe is on the bucket. Do you have any contact images for stock cams?
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:39 AM   #33
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Please give us a time frame when everyone First noticed this started happening. I have a set of kelford 272's on a DAVCS motor i purchased in 2012 and haven't run yet.


Everyone's work and feedback on this is most appreciated! Thank you and keep up the good work.
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:45 AM   #34
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Three or four years ago
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:08 PM   #35
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So what's the consensus for upgrading cams now? I was looking into the GSCs at first but changed my mind from Doms input months ago.

So far it seems like only JUN cams haven't been noted with failures (yet).

As mentioned before I have non avcs BC cams now but will be upgrading my total build in the near future and do not want any catastrophic failures.
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
So what's the consensus for upgrading cams now? I was looking into the GSCs at first but changed my mind from Doms input months ago.

So far it seems like only JUN cams haven't been noted with failures (yet).

As mentioned before I have non avcs BC cams now but will be upgrading my total build in the near future and do not want any catastrophic failures.
As far as I can tell, JUN cams have not been used enough by the community to establish a trend or a perceived level of reliability.
At this point, I'm willing to try almost anything.
Piper is a company in Europe that "recently" started making cams for Cosworth. Cosworth changes their manufacturer through the years for many of their components. Their Subaru rods used to be made by saenze, now they're made by Carrillo.
Piper is testing some new grinds currently. I'm hoping for results in the next 6 months or so.
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:25 PM   #37
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I doubt enough people are running the JUN's to be able to definitively say they have "no" issues.

Just like we've had no issues with our Piper cams, but there aren't a whole lot of them in on the road.

I.e. Tomei and JUN cams castings look identical, and Tomei cams have had issues, they also look exactly like the Kelford M2's posted by IAG, which have issues.

If its a casting issue, cams that look different to the GSC/Kelford item's might be a better bet.

Hard to say though, because according to my research, EVERY aftermarket cam manufacturer gets atleast some of their blanks from the same supplier in china.
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:31 PM   #38
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dom this is better version of your post

http://www.gizoogle.net/index.php?se...le+Dis+Shiznit
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:03 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post

If you have a success story and you did a non-typical break in, then share your break in procedure.
Dominic, as luck would have it I came across your cam thread a week after I bought the notorious Kelford B cams and was truly paranoid to put them in. I even bought some Tomei cams as they had the least amount of negative feedback compared to the other manufacturers. Upon seeing those, I just put them on the shelf and will sell them to someone who is OK with running the Tomei cams, I will not.

Needless to say, we spent a good chunk of change on this R&D engine and was already elbow deep at this point. So the Kelford B cams were going in one way or another. Performed hardness testing and obviously the surface finish is not nearly as good as OEM. I'm not a big proponent of parkay coating or 'cam additive' break-in processes. I'd much rather lap/finish a surface in a more controlled manner than by running on the engine, pushing iron bits everywhere in the process. I know it's minute, but I'm as anal as a MoFo when it comes to these details. Concentricity and sqaureness of the grinds seemed good, but we did perform finishing processes on the buckets too.

Nearly doubled the cost of the cams/buckets with the addition of the post finishing processes, so this may not be for the meager. On top of that, we've only got 2K miles on the car. What I do know is the engine was run ~2,000 RPMs for ~8 minutes, idled for another 5 then shut down. Fluids topped/capped and the oil filter removed and cut open. It was clean, very clean. Drove it for another ~300 miles then dumped the break-in oil and filter change. Everything was clean. Drioe the car from VA to CT and back with a pump and C16 tune in the middle (+500 and +600whp respectively) adding up to over 1,200 miles on the trip. Add commuting, doing errands and so on and we're ~2,000 miles in so far. Oil has not been changed yet, but appears to be very clean still. No 'odd' sounds coming from the valvetrain, but at this next oil change I will also be submitting a sample for oil analysis as well. So if there is any iron particulate that we're not seeing under magnification, it should come out in the analysis.

I don't think we have anything figured out yet, but it's a promising beginning. I'll feel much better once we've got 5-10K hard miles on the engine before making any kind of claim besides 'it's worked for us'.
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:36 PM   #40
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MPS-Dom here are some high res pictures of your buckets that were sent in. please notice the blueing... blueing is heat, heat is caused by a lack of lubrication.... As much as everyone would love for this to be a cam problem the lack of lubrication is what causes the damage. I've said it over and over... As for the idea of the lobe being on center and not allowing for the bucket to spin... please notice the round failure and the circle of blueing on the tappet. this shows that the tappet is being spun in a circle.




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Old 06-27-2014, 04:37 PM   #41
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FOR THOSE WITH KELFORD OR GSC CAMS FROM RECENT BUILDS

I would stress that you start sampling oil now and frequently. These cams can go south quickly and we'll within an oil change interval. From what I've seen/discussed/heard, when bad cams go, they go in a hurry.

I was first alerted to this probably 12-15 months when Dave from Headgames called me asking for my input on the problem. I told him about how OEMs grind to spin the bucket and Sugar actually offsets the bucket to promote spinning.

You'll notice that both GSC and KELFORD are wider lobes and more centered on the bucket. This will decrease spin and increase localized heat in the bucket.

My thought is that once you've started to groove a bucket, the surface hardening finally goes and that is why so many users will notice a tapping start after having driving a new build but find the engine dead in in a few hundred miles.

Just my $0.02,
Micah

P.S. for what it is worth, I haven't handled BC cams I'm years and never paid attention to this on there cams.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 06-27-2014 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
If you have a success story and you did a non-typical break in, then share your break in procedure.
Mine was dyno broken in and tuned 26 psi meth (>500whp) the next day. I know IAG has done a few Kelford cams in the recent months and many more setups in the past without incidences of catastrophic failure (as stated personally I have 30,000 miles on mine). Perhaps it is the custom billet adapter they custom made to resolve the timing issue that may also mitigate premature wear on the buckets... Who knows, I guess for people with new projects if it makes you feel anymore secure, get it built by a shop that has relative success with Kelfords in the past, I don't know what else to say to amidst this hysteria

Currently I burn no oil and my oil analyses are spotless.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregGSC View Post
MPS-Dom here are some high res pictures of your buckets that were sent in. please notice the blueing... blueing is heat, heat is caused by a lack of lubrication.... As much as everyone would love for this to be a cam problem the lack of lubrication is what causes the damage. I've said it over and over... As for the idea of the lobe being on center and not allowing for the bucket to spin... please notice the round failure and the circle of blueing on the tappet. this shows that the tappet is being spun in a circle.
So why are oem cams not failing yet yours are? Why are rebuilds with oem cams getting put back in not failing? How is there a difference from someone who just does a normal head rebuild.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:19 PM   #44
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Our GSC S2s failed after 600 miles, you claimed it was an oiling issue. No refund or help to fix it.

The only changes were new Piper cams and a new buckets to get lash spot on.

No issues after, 2000 miles.
So it definately ISN'T an oiling issue, or the new cams would've failed prematurely too.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:40 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
Individual success stories do us no good and provide no data. I have plenty of builds that had no issue. We need data on failures. So if you don't have a failure story and you did everything by the book, then you have no data for us. If you have a success story and you did a non-typical break in, then share your break in procedure.
Didn't mean to derail the thread. I was just hoping that I wasn't overdue for a catastrophic failure.

I'm building a new sleeved block and want to keep my heads as they flow very well.

Cheers
-J
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:40 PM   #46
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GSC S2 user checking in...

1600 miles on the new engine. Used a mixture of engine oil treatment and conventional oil to lube the cams/buckets. The mixture is thicker than oil but not too thick like some break-in lubes can be. This was a tip I picked up from a guys that's been building engine before since before I was born.

I did a 20 minute idle at 2000 rpms as recommended to me by GSC. I dumped that oil and ran the engine again the next day at 2000 rpms until it was fully warm and then continued on with 20 miles of driving, an oil change and then hard break-in after that.

I've been paying attention to my oil and sounds from the engine and so far everything is normal. I'll get a sample of oil sent off for analysis and see if anything concerning is found.
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregGSC View Post
MPS-Dom here are some high res pictures of your buckets that were sent in. please notice the blueing... blueing is heat, heat is caused by a lack of lubrication....
Or it could be cause by a cam made out of **** materials with a **** design manufactured by a **** company with **** customer service.

But I'm sure it is a head oiling issue since Subarus are so prone to that
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:46 PM   #48
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Anyone tracking batch numbers to see if it was limited to certain production runs?
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by KingPest View Post
But I'm sure it is a head oiling issue since Subarus are so prone to that
This is a very good point, which has been mentioned before in this thread.

GSC- if oiling is the issue, then what steps should be taken so that the issue, that does not plague stock cam setups, can be avoided? Also, why aren't stock cams seeing similar failures, if poor oiling is the cause?

I will be anxiously awaiting for your solution to these failures.
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:59 PM   #50
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These cams lasted roughly 700 miles in an engine that was comprised of new OEM parts top to bottom, left to right. No scoring, no blueing, just carnage. GSC S1/beehive combo with BRAND NEW OEM heads, and all new lifters lashed to GSC's specification with the heads tq'd to the case.

Last edited by ericz; 06-27-2014 at 07:29 PM.
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