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Old 10-24-2002, 06:06 PM   #1
codean
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Default utec with stage two map is giving me knock.

When I first installed the utec I had no knock problems. However, I was only getting 14.1 psi max boost (utec reading). The next day I raised boost 1 psi and calibrated the tps % because it was only reading 95% at WOT. Now my car is getting knock at around 2500-2700 rpm, where I just start to get full boost. I took some timing out but the problem is still there, mostly under high load (4th and 5th gear).

How can the conservative stage 2 map be so off for my car? I do have an up-pipe and running catless. Could these two mods cause the boost curve to change so much that the programmed timing curve of the utec is too far off?

I should be able to run more then 14.1 psi right?
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Old 10-24-2002, 06:13 PM   #2
RiftsWRX
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Default Re: utec with stage two map is giving me knock.

Quote:
Originally posted by codean
When I first installed the utec I had no knock problems. However, I was only getting 14.1 psi max boost (utec reading). The next day I raised boost 1 psi and calibrated the tps % because it was only reading 95% at WOT. Now my car is getting knock at around 2500-2700 rpm, where I just start to get full boost. I took some timing out but the problem is still there, mostly under high load (4th and 5th gear).

How can the conservative stage 2 map be so off for my car? I do have an up-pipe and running catless. Could these two mods cause the boost curve to change so much that the programmed timing curve of the utec is too far off?

I should be able to run more then 14.1 psi right?
Low RPM is more suceptible to knock at higher map readings. If you look at the stock map it's a taper from around 30 degrees in the 70-100 range until around 3500 RPM where timing drops.. IMO... you would make those early RPM load points the same as the lowest point in that columns taper area (15 degrees I think) that way you can transition gradually to more timing as RPM increases. But that's how I've tuned my maps. Plus for those who like to bang gears you don't get whacked with torque spikes on speed shifts.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 10-24-2002, 06:28 PM   #3
8Complex

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Try increasing the fuel there a bit.. .probably one step below to one step above where you're having issues.
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Old 10-24-2002, 07:32 PM   #4
codean
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The stock ecu controls fuel at the point where it's getting knock. I guess I have to see what the stock ecu is doing at that point and then add alittle fuel to it.
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Old 10-25-2002, 03:50 PM   #5
RiftsWRX
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ok Cody.. at face value

Quote:
Now my car is getting knock at around 2500-2700 rpm, where I just start to get full boost. I took some timing out but the problem is still there, mostly under high load (4th and 5th gear).
This tell me that you are going WOT in 4th and 5th.. which is no longer closed loop.. and you are now in the 70-100 range on your map (confirmed via the "1" logger option)

If that is the case that they have ECU fueling, then you need to pull timing out. Does the map have 30's at that point (I'm thinking they do)

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
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Old 10-26-2002, 05:55 PM   #6
codean
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Default

The map goes from 27-20 in those points. I'm really getting knock all over the place (the biggest problem areas are 2700-3500 rpm and 4250-5000 rpm) in 3rd-5th gear pulls, 3rd not being as bad.

I'm going to start over and take 2-3 degrees off across the whole board and see what happens.
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Old 10-27-2002, 12:11 PM   #7
motoxphil
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Codean,

Pulling timing out has a profound effect on "knock" retention. I would pull out 1-2 degrees around your "knock" events, but make sure you taper those into the surrounding timing points for smooth performance.

You could also lower your boost duty cycles to accommodate for your driving habits as to reduce the amount of boost generated when you nail it in 5th gear at 2700 RPM etc.


Thanks,
Phil
TurboXS.

Last edited by motoxphil; 10-27-2002 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 10-27-2002, 05:17 PM   #8
downshift1
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Just curious Cody, what brand gas are you running?

We've been having knock issues with some of the DSMs on the pump gas lately. I'm begining to wonder about the quality of gas and the additives for winter.

Jorge-
Any thoughts on this or personal findings?

-Dylan
Automotosports Inc.
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Old 10-27-2002, 05:56 PM   #9
codean
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I have only run Mobil 93 from day one. I too have considered bad gas as a potential problem because the last fill up was not from one of my usual locations.

However the problem still exists with a new full tank.
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Old 10-28-2002, 01:04 PM   #10
RiftsWRX
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Quote:
Originally posted by codean
I have only run Mobil 93 from day one. I too have considered bad gas as a potential problem because the last fill up was not from one of my usual locations.

However the problem still exists with a new full tank.
Cody, I can take a look at it on Thursday at our weekly meet for you, or I can do it sooner if you would prefer. KNOCK = BAD... so I'd rather you not push it and let me give you a hand with it then end up with your car in the garage like mine is right now.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
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Old 10-28-2002, 01:29 PM   #11
TurboXS
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Cody,

A couple of points:
1. You are using a map tuned for Stage 2 which was tuned for a WRX with two (2) catalytic converters in the the exhaust, while you have zero (0)catalytic converters. Your low end det is undoubtedly being at least partially caused by the fact that you have to be spooling up a few hundred rpm faster than a "normal" Stage 2 WRX. Reduce your ignition timing down to 15-16 degrees at 2500 and 2750 rpm in columns 70-100.

2. I believe that you "lucky guys" in the Chicago area not only get gasoline with Ethanol added year round, but may also get MTBE added in the wintertime. Both of these additives will change the burn characteristics of your air:fuel mix and will require you to either reduce ignition advance, add fuel, or lower boost (or a combination of the three). We should be getting our reformulated winter gas here in MD in the next 3 weeks and will have a chance to see the effects of the gas firsthand on our WRXs. If we find we need to make some changes for the winter fuel, we will and we will let people know and make new maps available. Meanwhile, proceed with your plan to pull 2-3 degrees of timing across the board and see what happens from there. Feel free to send us a copy of your maps and datalogs (set 1 is the best) to mark@turboxs.com and we'll help you sort this out.

Mark
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Old 10-29-2002, 12:44 AM   #12
codean
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS
Cody,

A couple of points:
1. You are using a map tuned for Stage 2 which was tuned for a WRX with two (2) catalytic converters in the the exhaust, while you have zero (0)catalytic converters. Your low end det is undoubtedly being at least partially caused by the fact that you have to be spooling up a few hundred rpm faster than a "normal" Stage 2 WRX. Reduce your ignition timing down to 15-16 degrees at 2500 and 2750 rpm in columns 70-100.
This is what I figured. I have done this and it did help a little, but there still is knock. Sometimes my knock link reaches yellow before the utec retards timing while other times only the second green will flicker before it takes care of knock.

Jorge, If you could take a look on thursday that would be nice.
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Old 10-29-2002, 09:58 PM   #13
SPeeDSiN
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Codean,
I am having very similar problems with the same map. I have yet to do a data log, but under similar cicumstances I do get knock events, as indicated by the CEL.
I am also running catless.

Leme know what you find out or how to fix it given the adivce posted from turboxs
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Old 10-29-2002, 10:29 PM   #14
jjunior887
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It's been getting a bit chilly here in VA so bad(winter) gas and the colder weather may be contributing. here's a link from what I posted on the Wrx hackers website. I'm having the same problem, but it happens a bit more sparatic than when the boost is building. You can see for yourself, I posted a few of my logs Here -James
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Old 10-31-2002, 04:00 AM   #15
downshift1
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS
I believe that you "lucky guys" in the Chicago area not only get gasoline with Ethanol added year round, but may also get MTBE added in the wintertime. Both of these additives will change the burn characteristics of your air:fuel mix and will require you to either reduce ignition advance, add fuel, or lower boost (or a combination of the three).
Mark
TurboXS
That's what I was thinking about the gas. We've been mixing 100 octane no-lead in our faster cars at the shop just to avoid knock from the crappy winter gas.

-Dylan
Automotosports Inc.
"Grain alcohol belongs in a bottle on my shelf, not in my gas tank."
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