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Old 07-10-2014, 09:21 PM   #1
sexyyrex
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Default DW1300cc Clogged Injectors?

Guys,
Built my motor last summer, got her up and running last August. Long story short, it's not a daily driver. Ran E85 from August to October, and then filled her up with pump gas, drove her for a while then let it sit all winter.

Fast forward to the spring '14, drove it around on pump gas for a while, then switched over to E85 around the beginning of April and has had E85 since then. Car sat the whole month of June getting started 3 times and driven once for the whole month (I was in Korea for work, my brother would start it on the weekends and took it out once for me).

Fast forward again to about 3 weeks ago, when I would start the car it, it would have a hard time idling solid without throttle. I'd look at the wideband and it'd go lean but eventually settle out to 14.5-14.7 at idle after a few iterations of idle "hunting" and almost stalling out. During this hunting the wideband would go way lean, then come back to 13.0 or so and do this for a few minutes until it settled out. If I turn the car off and back on a few hours later, it's completely fine, it doesn't idle hunt, doesn't go lean or want to stall out.

The past few times i've taken it out, i've gone WOT and it felt very slow until I felt a sudden jolt in power almost like it's clearing out an injector, and then basically runs great until this procress starts all over again a week or few days later.

Sound like a clogged injector? Should I run a tank of 93 through her to see if it changes anything or just take em out and send em off to DW? Or does it sound like something else?

I've got a wb460lph in tank, flat4motorsports fuel lines with an inline 40 micron filter, aeromotoive fully adjustable FPR and aeromotive fuel rails.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:54 PM   #2
Layvon
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Check for cylinder roughness, if one is rough, move injector and see if it follows.

Run 93 through it to see if that helps.

ID recommends finer filtration than that. Since you have an AN setup buy Fuel Labs 6 micron fiberglass filter or a Golan Stainless 10 Micron. You want 10 micron or smaller for injectors, and with E85 you need stainless or the Fiberglass

Edit... DW1300s. Sell those and buy some IDs. ( I have used ID1300s FS too lol ) I have been burned by the injector game on a dyno visit on FICs, nothing but ID anymore for me.

Last edited by Layvon; 07-10-2014 at 10:59 PM. Reason: DW injectors. EWWW
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:24 PM   #3
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Max,

how old is your front o2? is it original?

your car sits a lot I know.

Msg me tomorrow.

-Phil
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:47 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
Check for cylinder roughness, if one is rough, move injector and see if it follows.

Run 93 through it to see if that helps.

ID recommends finer filtration than that. Since you have an AN setup buy Fuel Labs 6 micron fiberglass filter or a Golan Stainless 10 Micron. You want 10 micron or smaller for injectors, and with E85 you need stainless or the Fiberglass

Edit... DW1300s. Sell those and buy some IDs. ( I have used ID1300s FS too lol ) I have been burned by the injector game on a dyno visit on FICs, nothing but ID anymore for me.
Funny you say that, I actually do have some cylinder roughness counts a little higher than normal in cyl 4. I attributed it to a) the location of the knock sensor and b) the motor being built and the tolerances of the motor being slightly loose and c) the location on the injector in the fuel run.

I did talk to the builder and he said usually the motors they build aren't loose enough to usually show up a ton of cyl roughness. I don't have a "high" count, but it's in the 30's-40's since the spring in that one cylinder. The rest of the cyl roughness counts are single digits other then cyl 1 which was at 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat 4 Motorsport View Post
Max,

how old is your front o2? is it original?

your car sits a lot I know.

Msg me tomorrow.

-Phil
Sir Phillip!
When we took the motor out of the car we never unhooked the front 02, shaking the motor back and fourth to trying to get it off the input shaft, we actually frayed the lines right at the front 02 sensor. I sourced a used one out of a wrecked 09 STI.

My fuel trims are within normal range i'd say, and it drives fine on partial boost/throttle before that initial WOT pull. But during the WOT inital pull, you can definitely feel that it's lazy, and then a jolt like somethings cleared from the injectors and then it's fine. I watch the AFR's during the intial WOT pull and nothing out of the ordinary is going on, it's not like its super lean. It's almost as though one of the injectors is gunking up whilst sitting, then it clears halfway through the first WOT pull.

It starts fine, it idles fine, it drives great afterwords. That's what leads me to believe it's an injector/fueling issue, not an 02 sensor issue.
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Old 07-11-2014, 08:18 PM   #5
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How old are the plugs?
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Old 07-13-2014, 05:47 PM   #6
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How old are the plugs?
Not old, maybe 3k miles?
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexyyrex View Post
Guys,
Built my motor last summer, got her up and running last August. Long story short, it's not a daily driver. Ran E85 from August to October, and then filled her up with pump gas, drove her for a while then let it sit all winter.

Fast forward to the spring '14, drove it around on pump gas for a while, then switched over to E85 around the beginning of April and has had E85 since then. Car sat the whole month of June getting started 3 times and driven once for the whole month (I was in Korea for work, my brother would start it on the weekends and took it out once for me).

Fast forward again to about 3 weeks ago, when I would start the car it, it would have a hard time idling solid without throttle. I'd look at the wideband and it'd go lean but eventually settle out to 14.5-14.7 at idle after a few iterations of idle "hunting" and almost stalling out. During this hunting the wideband would go way lean, then come back to 13.0 or so and do this for a few minutes until it settled out. If I turn the car off and back on a few hours later, it's completely fine, it doesn't idle hunt, doesn't go lean or want to stall out.

The past few times i've taken it out, i've gone WOT and it felt very slow until I felt a sudden jolt in power almost like it's clearing out an injector, and then basically runs great until this procress starts all over again a week or few days later.

Sound like a clogged injector? Should I run a tank of 93 through her to see if it changes anything or just take em out and send em off to DW? Or does it sound like something else?

I've got a wb460lph in tank, flat4motorsports fuel lines with an inline 40 micron filter, aeromotoive fully adjustable FPR and aeromotive fuel rails.
you know whats funny...well maybe not, I was talking to forman about going e85 and it seem like if you let it sit, even more than a week, it messes up injectors... kinda keeping me from doing e85
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:28 PM   #8
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Maybe pump pre filter is clogged? Mine got black deposits on it from the e85 no destroyed hoses or signs of were the deposits came from.


That was after about 40 tanks that have gone thru it and a bunch of 93 7k miles worth awhile back.

Last edited by spoolinsti05; 07-13-2014 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:21 AM   #9
sexyyrex
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well, I switched back to 93 on Saturday and drove it for about 40 miles. Gas gauge hasn't even moved yet. I'll update when the car has had it's first full tank of 93 circulated through it.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:05 AM   #10
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so, a bit of an update. drove the car to work this morning, (hour drive) and I notice in 6th if im at cruise and I accelerate slightly (maybe 10% throttle position) I'll hit a lean patch (16.0 or so) and then right back down to 14.3-14.7.
I did notice however that my knock sum cyl 4 would go up during these lean patches. I started the drive today at knock sum cyl 4 at 27 and ended at 47. So, i'm beginning to think cyl 4 is suspect.

I have about 3/4 tank of 93 left, but when I get home from work today the injectors are coming out. I can't take the risk of going super lean. Just going to baby it home and yank the injectors for cleaning.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:02 PM   #11
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Any updates? Im experiencing the very same issues. Also on a built sb and running e85 but switched back to pump gas as you did. Id 1300's also


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Old 07-23-2014, 08:40 AM   #12
sexyyrex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshwrx04 View Post
Any updates? Im experiencing the very same issues. Also on a built sb and running e85 but switched back to pump gas as you did. Id 1300's also


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Well, the car has a half tank of pump in it now. On the drive home from work, it seemed as "tip in" no longer went as lean as it did right after the tank of e85 and now when I start it, instead of stumbling 3 or 4 times on idle as it's settling, it stumbles once slightly and then seems to idle OK.

I think i'll finish the tank of pump off, and see if the conditions get any better before I pull the injectors, but I haven't really been driving it.
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:48 AM   #13
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:14 PM   #14
sexyyrex
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
thanks B, I knew about the rusting. I just never thought the car sat long enough in order for any of these problems to occur. Maybe I have rusted an injector due to hot and humid weather, but why would my idle and tip-in "cruise" AFR's get better?

I know it also creates build up and I think it's possible it could be both rust and build up. I guess we'll see when I yank em soon.
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:44 AM   #15
sexyyrex
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Was driving the car around a little bit last night. Put the pedal to the floor and watched the AFR gauge, I saw a 12.2 or so right around when the WG started to open up and immediately backed off.

Now that I look at my graph, I wonder if I should be scared or not? It's got a 16 or 17 psi spring in the WG, and starts to crack around 4k or so? The car still has maybe 1/8 tank of e85 mixed with the 93. Maybe this is why it's showing slightly lean? I'd really like to avoid doing a full pull and being too lean, knocking and beating the crap out of the bearings on my motor that only has about 3k or so on it.



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Old 07-31-2014, 09:55 AM   #16
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Could be the fuel, could be the calibration of the O2. Have seen some in car O2s off by well over half a point over what the dyno input reads.

Give the fuel a chance to normalize and try again. Free air calibrate the O2 as well.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Could be the fuel, could be the calibration of the O2. Have seen some in car O2s off by well over half a point over what the dyno input reads.

Give the fuel a chance to normalize and try again. Free air calibrate the O2 as well.
Idle is pretty spot on at 14.4-14.7 but yeah, i'll do that. Couldn't hurt. WB02 sensor is already two years old, and like you said, I should probably let the fuel normalize some more. Think I should throw some fuel additive in it? Not really a big believer of those, but they couldn't hurt.

Just extremely cautious of the motor is all.
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Old 07-31-2014, 11:44 AM   #18
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Swap your crank and cam sensors. Problem solved.
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:50 PM   #19
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Still following this thread as im still having the sane problem as you.

Was thinking about swapping cam and crank sensor also.

Maybe knock sensor as well... As im having a phantom knock at low rpm out of boost.


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Old 08-01-2014, 09:12 AM   #20
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Swap your crank and cam sensors. Problem solved.
I thought about that, but I can't justify how the idle on start up got better after 5/8 tank of gas other then it being e85 residue in/on the injectors?
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:55 PM   #21
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Any luck man? I swapped coil packs and injectors.. Nothing.
Next is to pull the injectors and have them cleaned.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:51 PM   #22
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Any luck man? I swapped coil packs and injectors.. Nothing.
Next is to pull the injectors and have them cleaned.
actually yeah, some development. After getting some water inside the car and pulling the whole car apart and putting it back together, I went to start the car for the first time, as I was priming the injectors I heard something odd.

Popped the hood went to the front of the car and heard what I thought was a leak, but not a fuel leak, just an air leak. Cylinder number 4's top injector o ring had fell out of the fuel rail and was now around the injector. My guess is, the car is letting air in under cruise. I've ordered new injector o-rings for all 4 injectors, will replace and then update.
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