Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday September 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-21-2014, 10:42 AM   #1
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default Buy a built shortblock or have a tuning shop hone & rebuild mine?

I think some minor knock has hammered out my bearings over time and I might be in the market for a rebuild soon at just 26k miles. Car still pulls harder than ever, can hit 31 mpg at 65mph, but when I rev the car, with the clutch in or out, there's a distinct vibration/grinding/rumbling sound above 2.5k rpm that sounds like maybe all 4 rod bearings have little gaps in them. It doesn't sound like typical single-bearing "youtube rod knock", but there's something up with it, to the point where a dealership would question a trade-in. Also, I can easily make it trigger feedback knock correction if I give it gas at ~2k rpm in 3rd or above, and I can feel that through the gas pedal.

It's been like this for a few months, but seems to be getting worse. Provided it isn't a throwout bearing or anything, and is indeed bad internals, (if they find metal in my oil/filter, etc), what my best course of action?

My friend just went through a full rebuild on his 2011 WRX at a tuning shop after a dead fuel pump caused a blown piston, and it cost him nearly $7500 including labor, $2000 in machining, and buying all of the supporting items like a new oil pump, water pump, timing belt, etc.

Would it be better to just order a new custom shortblock online, have someone resurface my existing heads and reassemble the engine, sell my shortblock, vs paying extra labor & machining for a rebuild?

These built shortblocks seem to be available, with increasing levels of strength/balance/cost. This has got to cut down on some labor, and almost eliminate any machining costs, right? ( instead being built into the price of the new block of course)

$3100 - Vigilant Motorsports Street Series Plus (CP or Manley Pistons, but STI Rods)

$3600 - IIR Stage 2 (Manley H-Tuff Rods)
$3600 - AWD Tuning Stage 2 (Manley H-Tuff Rods)

$4000 - AWD Tuning Stage 3 (Pauter X-Beam Rods, overkill?)
$4100 - Vigilant Motorsports Econo Series (Manley H-Tuff Rods. Better balanced? 8500RPM limit)

$4900 - Vigilant Motorsports Track Series (Better coating & balance? 8500RPM limit)
$5000 - Equilibrium Tuning Stage 2 (Cosworth Rods & extensive honing and balancing?)

On top of a new shortblock, I'd still need:
$200 - ARP Head Studs
$145 - OEM Oil Pump
$310 - OEM Engine Gasket Set
$395 - Gates Timing Belt & Water Pump
$100 - Coolant
$120 - Head Surface Work
$xxxx - Labor
And these would probably be a good idea:
$170 - Killer-B Oil Pickup
$550 - Injectors
$520 - Clutch
$650 - Cobb Accessport V3
$500 - Protune
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by blehhh; 07-21-2014 at 12:01 PM.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 01:23 PM   #2
MrTris
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 346921
Join Date: Feb 2013
Default

These are good options, and within your range. Reputable builder, known good blocks.

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/engine_blocks.htm

Going with a built block from a known reputable builder may save you in the longrun -- it's pretty easy to build one, but it's not easy to build one that will last more than 10k before it spins a bearing or develops some other issue that will result in a catastrophic failure. Do your due diligence and read up from other users who have a similar block, or have used that particular builder before you pull the trigger.
MrTris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:09 PM   #3
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Outfront seems to be just the blocks or a turn-key engine? Looking for a complete, honed, balanced short block. I definitely don't have any plans of assembling it myself or doing "drop ins".

Leaning toward something like this maybe: http://www.rallispec.com/eng_sbl_rssb25.html

I'm getting ahead of myself though I suppose. Bearings might not be the problem afterall, and a built block won't last as long, so I have a lot of unknowns and even more decisions to make once I know more.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:09 PM   #4
EdgeAutosport.com
NASIOC Storefront Vendor
 
Member#: 329319
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Default

You will also save yourself some considerable downtime by picking up an already built short block.
EdgeAutosport.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:12 PM   #5
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdgeAutosport.com View Post
You will also save yourself some considerable downtime by picking up an already built short block.
Also a big perk it seems, especially since my car still runs at the moment. I can wait until the absolute last second to start the swap, if I'm lucky.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:28 PM   #6
user1029
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57064
Join Date: Mar 2004
Vehicle:
2008 STi IAG built
HTA86, Meth, 272s, Cos IM

Default

If you aren't doing it yourself, make sure to go to a shop that builds/installs/tunes so less fingerpointing if something goes wrong. Better if they have a warranty on the engine build as well (IAG offers 1 year/12k miles) if it blows up right after the dyno. I could just taste dem tears.
user1029 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:34 PM   #7
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Outfront does offer assembled short blocks.
We have several running around our area doing great, some making well over 500whp.
jnorth85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:35 PM   #8
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

yeaahhhh, I might be getting in over my head here with something that really isn't worth the money to me personally. Woof. Sometimes I want to just revert to stock, trade it in with full disclosure, and run away from the tuning world with my tail between my legs.

I need to have someone diagnose my car, 100%, and tell me whether or not I need a rebuild.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 03:01 PM   #9
BraveSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 262030
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Upinyourgirl.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh View Post
yeaahhhh, I might be getting in over my head here with something that really isn't worth the money to me personally. Woof. Sometimes I want to just revert to stock, trade it in with full disclosure, and run away from the tuning world with my tail between my legs.

I need to have someone diagnose my car, 100%, and tell me whether or not I need a rebuild.
I hear you- but what're you looking for longevity or outright POWA? Because its tough to have the best of both worlds with these engines and it also cost $$$$
BraveSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 03:14 PM   #10
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveSTi View Post
I hear you- but what're you looking for longevity or outright POWA? Because its tough to have the best of both worlds with these engines and it also cost $$$$
I think I got a lot out of my system these past few years in terms of power cravings. The ~300whp that it puts down right now seems to be plenty for me. Going above 320whp/350wtq will require an upgraded clutch too, and then with a built motor it's like "why not upgrade the turbo/injectors?"

At this point, I think I'd wipe my hands of the car and my mods for an Audi A3 to be honest. It seems like such a huge risk and production to keep digging this hole and dive into the built motor world.

I guess I'm just kicking myself for not staying on top of my datalogging, if I do in fact have knock-induced bearing issues. It was logging clean for a week, but apparently developed some -1.5 FLKC here and there at some point over the past few months. I'm on a new, more conservative tune now, but still...

Like I said, it's been feeling/sounding like this for months, but slowly getting worse, so I'm pretty puzzled and alarmed.

Last edited by blehhh; 07-21-2014 at 03:25 PM.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 03:18 PM   #11
fastblueufo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 212154
Join Date: May 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Ed@fastperformancetuning.com
Vehicle:
02 billet crank
pauter rods, pt5857, E85

Default

Www.facebook.com/fastperformancetuning
Www.fastperformancetuning.com

Manley i beam turbo tuff rods, je pistons, king or ACL bearings for $3500. That's on used case halves. Balanced and blue printed with spec sheet.
fastblueufo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 04:47 PM   #12
tcpip4lyfe
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 355361
Join Date: May 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Iowa
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Silver

Default

Don't forget that if you've spun a bearing, you need a new oil cooler too since it's basically impossible to get it clean enough. They aren't cheap either. Like $180.

If I were you I'd be tearing into the motor to see what is actually wrong with it. If you just spun bearings, it's really not that big of a deal. Get some new ones + all the "Might as wells" (oil cooler, timing stuff, head gaskets, etc) and continue on with life.
tcpip4lyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 04:52 PM   #13
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcpip4lyfe View Post
Don't forget that if you've spun a bearing, you need a new oil cooler too since it's basically impossible to get it clean enough. They aren't cheap either. Like $180.

If I were you I'd be tearing into the motor to see what is actually wrong with it. If you just spun bearings, it's really not that big of a deal. Get some new ones + all the "Might as wells" (oil cooler, timing stuff, head gaskets, etc) and continue on with life.
Oil cooler is on my list. The cost of the parts don't seem to be my issue. The real costs are the machining of an existing block, the labor, the downtime and then the reliability concern if I go forged pistons.

I'm having the dealership look at my car tomorrow morning. I told them I wanted a diagnosis on the sound/vibration, and that they might even want to drop the oil pan / cut open the filter to check for metal.

Again, I'm confused because I've been driving this car like this for a few months now. If had even the slightest bearing problems, the motor should be dead by now, not pulling harder than ever to the point where the clutch can't even hold the power sometimes.

Last edited by blehhh; 07-21-2014 at 05:17 PM.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:11 AM   #14
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Well, the dealership just told me the car is fine. They blame the NVH on the mods, which is fair, but it's the newness of it all that had me worried, since I haven't done any mods since September.

After the tech went over everything though, I asked if this meant they wouldn't even flinch if I were to put it back to stock someday and trade it in and he said they'd pay top dollar for it; no drive-ability issues, no codes, zero suspicious of a bearing issue, not burning oil, pulls great, etc.

I'm still scratching my head how this metal on metal vibrating sensation & sound can be new within these last few months, and the car still be running at 100% for months.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:25 AM   #15
bicycle_wreck
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226331
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Knoxville, TN
Vehicle:
2012 WRX Hatch
Dirty Smurf

Default

There are so many things to check before I would tear down the engine.

Check for exhaust leaks, especially things you've touched--which looks like everything. Check your mounts on the intercooler, check your belts, etc. Check the entire exhaust for clearance/rattles.

Could be something as simple as your TOB. I believe you when you say you have a noise, but you have to start eliminating things before you call those bearings toast.

Also, next time you change your oil, send a sample off to blackstone-labs.com for an analysis. They will tell you if you have unusually high wear on that OCI.

Perhaps you should start taking the car back to stock. In the process of doing so, you might find the problem. And if you don't, you're already back to stock and you can do whatever you want with the car (including selling it).

EDIT: Also, 08-14 WRX's do not have oil coolers.

Last edited by bicycle_wreck; 07-22-2014 at 10:34 AM.
bicycle_wreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:33 AM   #16
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

I'm guessing a big part of the noise is exhaust leaks from my header. I know it leaks because the flanges aren't perfect, but it's always leaked since I installed it back in September.

But yeah, I think I might start by taking the lightweight crank pulley off. That made rev matching a little easier, but it didn't really make the engine any smoother. I think there's some merit to that heavy OEM pulley.

I've already reverted to stock pitch stop, in an effort to evade the noises, but that didn't seem to affect much.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:35 AM   #17
bicycle_wreck
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226331
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Knoxville, TN
Vehicle:
2012 WRX Hatch
Dirty Smurf

Default

When I did the transmission crossmember bushings and transmission mount, my engine noise went up a great deal. It made the engine feel rough to me. Not sure if it's the same thing you're describing.

Re: headers - If the flanges weren't flat, it is very possible that the header bolts have backed up a bit from the heat cycles. I've seen it happen on small block Fords and Chevys when I worked at a speed/fab shop.
bicycle_wreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:41 AM   #18
toph
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 78640
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
08 STi SSM 3.5XT-R
15 WRX 6MT Limited CBS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blehhh View Post
I'm guessing a big part of the noise is exhaust leaks from my header. I know it leaks because the flanges aren't perfect, but it's always leaked since I installed it back in September.
Pre-turbo exhaust leaks are far from ideal. I would get that thing off and file the flanges as flat as possible, using a straight edge to check. I had the same issue with my Perrin header.
toph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:42 AM   #19
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycle_wreck View Post
When I did the transmission crossmember bushings and transmission mount, my engine noise went up a great deal. It made the engine feel rough to me. Not sure if it's the same thing you're describing.

Re: headers - If the flanges weren't flat, it is very possible that the header bolts have backed up a bit from the heat cycles. I've seen it happen on small block Fords and Chevys when I worked at a speed/fab shop.
Thanks, I might get under there and torque em down again.

I did the trans mount & bushings at one point, but I had to undo all of those to play nice with the CF DS.

My biggest concern here is that it makes these noises & vibrations when you rev it in neutral with the clutch in.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2014, 10:44 AM   #20
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toph View Post
Pre-turbo exhaust leaks are far from ideal. I would get that thing off and file the flanges as flat as possible, using a straight edge to check. I had the same issue with my Perrin header.
It boosts perfectly fine, and at some point those leaks act as little EWGs, right?

But no, you're right, if there's any chance those could be causing turbulence/back pressure, that's not good.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 08:43 AM   #21
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Here's a video of my "perfectly fine" car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpehxuiEE9c

I can feel sharp vibration through the gas pedal, and things start to really buzz at 3.5k rpm.

You can only hear it when the windows are up and you're not moving, but it's hard to tell if that means it's not happening while you're moving or you just can't hear it.

This noise has gotten worse over the past few months, but I'm really scratching my head. If the dealership thinks it's fine, maybe it's time to revert to stock and dump it. :/
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 10:00 AM   #22
bicycle_wreck
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 226331
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Knoxville, TN
Vehicle:
2012 WRX Hatch
Dirty Smurf

Default

I think you should address the headers.
bicycle_wreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 11:39 AM   #23
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

I'm having an exhaust shop take a look at it in a week. Hopefully they can sort of bend/flatten the flanges, and maybe copper spray the gaskets to get things to stop leaking. If I knew 100% that buying a new Tomei header would fix this, I would do it, but not knowing if it's truly just the header that's quite a risk...

I could always swap out the OEM header & uppipe too just to check, but that's a lot of work.

I might see about coating the header surface and both sides of the gaskets with Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket, and the using a liberal amount of Permatex Ultra Copper RTV between the header and the gasket only (rather than getting RTV on the engine). Torque it down within 15 minutes. Warm up for 15 minutes. Shut it off and leave it over night.

Last edited by blehhh; 07-25-2014 at 03:07 PM.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 05:29 PM   #24
RexWagonWA
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 221945
Join Date: Aug 2009
Default Leaks

You may want to check out GrimmSpeeds double thickness exhaust gaskets. I have solved a number of leaks using their gaskets.
RexWagonWA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2014, 06:46 PM   #25
blehhh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 316517
Join Date: Apr 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Portland, ME
Vehicle:
2012 WRB WRX Hatch
TP Stage III & ELH

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexWagonWA View Post
You may want to check out GrimmSpeeds double thickness exhaust gaskets. I have solved a number of leaks using their gaskets.
That's actually what's on there. The problem I think is the header fitment. They don't sit flat, and the flanges are thin, so they kind of warp around as you tighten the bolts, leaving ~1mm gaps here and there.
blehhh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.