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Old 11-04-2002, 01:09 PM   #1
z&cobb
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Default Pre-burned gas season is coming

If you are running, for example, a UTEC stage 2 map what is the problem with the low energy gasoline we get in the winter?

Isn't it basically not a question of octane (if you use 93 oxygenated), but of less bang for the injector pulse?

Let's say in Maryland the rule says 2% oxygen, which probably means 8% MTBE or maybe 1/2 that much if ethanol is used. Would the way to correct this be to increase fuel across the board by 2% ?. This is just a question, not a prescription.

Would this not be a problem when in closed loop operation, but only be a problem in open loop operation because the UTEC doesn't adapt?

In case the root of the issue is the question of motor octane number, I checked out Prestone 0 to 60 octane booster (Walmart and Advance Auto) and the label is honest and says 10 points and that one point is .1 octane units.
It has MMT in it and says it won't harm the cats or O2 sensors.
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Old 11-07-2002, 11:14 PM   #2
mr2guru
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While the stuff does work to an extent......


Repeated use WILL destroy your O2 sensor, guaranteed.
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Old 11-08-2002, 07:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by mr2guru
While the stuff does work to an extent......


Repeated use WILL destroy your O2 sensor, guaranteed.
I thought it was already being used in pump gasoline in the Canadian market. I know it can be used in the US market, but I am not aware of a US pump gas with MMT in it.

Did you use MMT and destroy an O2 sensor? How many ppm did you use? I guess I need to do a patent search and check out the supporting data and claims.

I have been exposed to opinions of both kinds, but no data. MMT is not TEL, and produces a different deposit somewhat soot-like but in the ppm range. Only a few ppm have a big effect on octane number.
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Old 11-08-2002, 11:57 PM   #4
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Well MMT at high concentrations does tend to produce carbon plugged catalytic converters:

Faggan et al., "An Evaluation of Manganese as an Antiknock in Unleaded Gasoline", SAE Automobile Engineering Meeting, Detroit, Mich., Oct. 13-17, 1975. 10/13-17/75.
Moran, John B., "The Environmental Implications of Manganese as an Alternate Antiknock", 1975 SAE Automotive Engineering & Manufacturing Meeting, Detroit, Mich., Oct. 15, 1975.
Benson, Jack D., "Manganese Fuel Additive (MMT) Can Cause Vehicle Problems", SAE Fuels & Lubricants Meeting, Tulsa, OK., Jun. 7-9, 1977.
Lenane, D. L., "MMT--A Further Evaluation", SAE Paper No. 770656, Ethyl Corp. Research Laboratories, Ferndale, MI. no date.
Furey, et al., "How MMT Causes Plugging of Monolithic Converters", SAE Paper No. 78004, SAE Congress & Exposition, Detroit, Mich., Feb. 27-Mar. 3, 1978.
Faix, Louis J., "A Study of the Effects of Manganese Fuel Additive Emissions", SAE Paper No. 780002, Chevrolet, Div. General Motors Corp., Warren, MI. 1978, (no month).
Lenane, D. L., "Effect of MMT on Emissions from Production Cars", SAE Paper No. 780003, Ethyl Corp. Research Laboratories, Ferndale, MI 1978 (no month).
Lichtenstein, et al., "MMT Plugging of Oxidation Catalysts on Ceramic & Metal Supports During Engine Dyno Studies of Catalyst Durability", SAE Paper No. 780005, Matthey Bishop, Inc., Malvern, PA, 1978 (no month).
Williamson, et al., "Effects of Fuel Additive MMT on Contaminant Retention & Catalyst Performance", SAE Paper No. 821193, Ford Motor Co., Fuels & Lubricants Meeting, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Oct. 18-21, 1982.
Otto et al., "Effectgs of Mn Deposits from MMT on Automotive Catalysts in the Absence and Presence of Other Fuel Additives", Environmental Science & Technology, vol. 12, No. 2, (pp. 181-184), Feb. 1978.
Bailie, et al., "MMT-A Versatile Antiknock", Ethyl Corporation Paper No. AM-78-36, no date.

However, US 6039772 says that although 1/16 g MMT (as elemental Mn) per gallon can plug the converter with a carbon residue, gasoline modified with aliphatic alchohols such as methanol, ethanol or isopropanol can prevent that even at 1/8 gram Mn per gallon. I found nothing about destroying O2 sensors, but the plugging effect is bad enough in itself.

If I were to experiment with MMT I would chose gasohol over MTBE to take advantage of the ethanol effect.

I will experiment with different doses of polyisobutylene, since that is my invention not MMT, and I know polysiobutylene unzips cleanly to isobutylene gas burning cleanly leaving no residue.

I have been using PIB for years in my 87 300zx and I had it checked by a mechanic who said there was no need to replace the original O2 sensor. Both the O2 sensor and the catalyst have survived several years of continuous additive testing, and the last time I had a Maryland dyno emissions test done the engine produced extremely low emissions (CO, HC, NOx) which is nice for a car approaching 300,000 miles. No problems with any part of the original FI system either.

Well now I can use the UTEC to check fuel modifications.
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Old 11-09-2002, 05:52 AM   #5
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Why not just use toluene? It's cheaper...more effective...readily available...won't harm O2's or cats...and mixes well with pump gas...I use 1.8 gallons per tank when looking for higher octane...works great.
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Old 11-09-2002, 08:13 PM   #6
z&cobb
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
Why not just use toluene? It's cheaper...more effective...readily available...won't harm O2's or cats...and mixes well with pump gas...I use 1.8 gallons per tank when looking for higher octane...works great.
Spanky
It's about both the amount you add for the same motor octane effect. A couple of gallons of aromatic per tank or 2 fl. oz. per tank. I will try toluene or xylene as a positive control. Control base gasoline, test concentration (1, 2....x fl oz.) in base gasoline, and positive control (1, 2....x gallons of aromatic hydrocarbon in neat fuel.

Then there are different gasolines, but I need to learn about the UTEC. 93 first, if thinks look OK, 89 maybe, but only after tests with 93.

Obviously, these tests won't keep me off the streets.

Anyone know how many minutes you can log data using the UTEC?
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Old 11-12-2002, 09:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by z&cobb


Anyone know how many minutes you can log data using the UTEC?
How big of a hard drive do you have? I logged about 15 minutes the other day, which took up about 3 megs. The problem is sifting thru the data logs afterwards. From now on, I will be liberally using the <p>ause and <s>tart buttons to filter only the runs that I want to look at.
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:39 PM   #8
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The log is a line of ~80 characters every .5 sec, if my count is right... that implies:

160 Bytes per sec
9.6 KBytes per min
576 KBytes (~1/2 MB) per hour

In short, you should be able to log for a LONG time.

-Paul
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:49 PM   #9
Jon [in CT]
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Default Re: Pre-burned gas season is coming

Quote:
Originally posted by z&amp;cobb
If you are running, for example, a UTEC stage 2 map what is the problem with the low energy gasoline we get in the winter?

Isn't it basically not a question of octane (if you use 93 oxygenated), but of less bang for the injector pulse?
You correctly guess that the problem with winter gas is not its octane rating, and yet you start evaluating the relative merits of various octane boosters?

I think that alcohol, for instance, burns faster (i.e. has a higher laminar flame speed) than gasoline. If so, then you may have to reduce your timing advance a little to compensate for this.

Last edited by Jon [in CT]; 11-12-2002 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:11 PM   #10
z&cobb
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Quote:
Originally posted by borchert


How big of a hard drive do you have? I logged about 15 minutes the other day, which took up about 3 megs. The problem is sifting thru the data logs afterwards. From now on, I will be liberally using the <p>ause and <s>tart buttons to filter only the runs that I want to look at.
I didn't think about a sifting through the data later. Maybe searching for knock events? I believe someone, IIRC, had a problem getting more than one screen of data. I havn't done any logging yet.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:09 PM   #11
z&cobb
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Default Re: Re: Pre-burned gas season is coming

Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
You correctly guess that the problem with winter gas is not its octane rating, and yet you start evaluating the relative merits of various octane boosters?

I think that alcohol, for instance, burns faster (i.e. has a higher laminar flame speed) than gasoline. If so, then you may have to reduce your timing advance a little to compensate for this.
Or putting in some xylene or a different physical-chemical means of spreading the combustion over a longer period (pressure-time curve). Timing the combustion release of energy as distinguished from just the initial event spark creation and the time lag to the start of combustion.

I am just planning this right now. I am reading things, finding Xylene ($10/G at Home Depot, 8 carbons, high density, MON = 115)

"High-performance Automotive Fuels and Fluids," by Jeff Hartman was interesting. I need much more time before testing "Road Octane." I would like the TXS tuning guide first, and maybe some other books. I like the Hartman section discussing knock from the end gases after TDC not causing power loss by itself, but doing that by increasing the probability of pre-ignition. That occurring as the piston rises. Smooth and precise energy delivery ove time interests me.

I have a lot of learning to do. Working with winter gas may or may not be the way to start, but I can't really say what I will do. Many of my past inventions have developed through "what if" curiosity. Inventions, regarding explosives and propellants, have gone into the USPTO and directly to the military.

Anyway, I don't have a real job, so I can experiment on my own time schedule.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:25 PM   #12
Jon [in CT]
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Hey, if you like slower combustion and its beneficial affect on peak cylinder pressure, maybe you'll want to design the little kit I mentioned in this thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=273946
Coincidentally, given this thread's title, it DOES use pre-burned gas.

Last edited by Jon [in CT]; 11-12-2002 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 11-12-2002, 08:00 PM   #13
z&cobb
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
Hey, if you like slower combustion and its beneficial affect on peak cylinder pressure, maybe you'll want to design the little kit I mentioned in this thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=273946
Coincidentally, given this thread's title, it DOES use pre-burned gas.
Interesting. I was thinking of physically and chemically, unzipping to free-radical quenchers after the physical effect is done, via a small amount added to the gasoline. The additive being effective in the ppm range in gasoline and being 100% hydrocarbon.

I will pull up the pdf's to see what the mechanism seems to be. Although there is an energy deficit adding "pre-burned" content, it is noted that may not be a big problem for turbo or super charged engines.

Thanks for making the connection, it might stimulate some more thinking.
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