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Old 11-20-2002, 05:56 PM   #1
imprez25
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Default overheating and antifreeze all over

On my way home today my 98 RS began overheating, as soon as I noticed the temprature was high I could smell antifreeze. I was only a few blocks away from home so I limped it there. When I got home and opened the hood there was antifreeze everywere. It looks like it was only coming out of the overflow tank. I removed the Thermostat and it seems to be stuck closed. It took a LOT of pressure to get it opened just a little. The car has 74000 on it and I am sure it is the factory therm. Does this seem like it is the thermostat, or anything else?


Please help me if you can, anyone! Thanks, shaun.
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Old 11-20-2002, 06:08 PM   #2
Subie Gal
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Default

98 eh?
the DOHC strikes again.
it's not just the thermo....
it's a VERY common problem with the Phase I 2.5 DOHC engine.

get it into a subaru shop for diagnosis.

you have 1 of 2 things...

blown heads...
or
cracked cylinder...

i'd bet $$ on it...
happened to me in my 99GT... cyl #4.. bye bye...


wish i had better news for ya.
but get it into a shop for proper diagnosis asap.
cheers
jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
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Old 11-20-2002, 06:15 PM   #3
imprez25
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Default

There is no antifreeze in the oil, it is not leaking anything from under the engine, and the engine was running smoothly all the way home.

I am going to replace the thermostat and see if that solves it. If it even shows the first hint of over heating I will have it towed in tomorrow.
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Old 11-20-2002, 06:56 PM   #4
Subie Gal
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good luck
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Old 11-20-2002, 06:57 PM   #5
ciper
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Default

imprez25: Its a VERY common problem. Its also an even more common misconception that oil and water has to mix to equal a BHG.

I know, ask anyone with an 87-92 supra and you will find that BHG happen often and that they NEVER mix coolant and oil.

It will also run fine with a leaking head gasket.

I wouldnt waste your time replacing the thermo. This wont cause the overflow problem. Just admit it, you have a serious problem okay?

I can almost tell you exactly what is happening. A small seepage occured between the shortest part of the gasket, between the cylinder and one of the water passages.

Under load there is enough pressure to push a little bit of gas into the chamber. When the leak first started (could have been even when the car was new) the function of the cap releasing pressure was able to let the bubbles out.

Now the leak has grown steadily to the point that bubbles create large empty spots, VERY bad for the engine I might add.

It also causes the coolant to become acidic. Your coolant is constantly eating away at the internals of your engine.

Check to see if you have a black lining in the overflow.

Edit: I guess I could be wrong though? Esiest way to tell would be to get a sniffer for the coolant. Quick way to determine it. A cheap way would be to taste the coolant. Id be willing to bet that its not as sweet as it used to be, possibly even very bitter.

READ THIS THREAD TOO
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=277631

Last edited by ciper; 11-20-2002 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 11-21-2002, 12:44 AM   #6
Tattoo Collector
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Default Same problem

I too have a 98 DOHC RS. I am in the process of building up a new engine. I was told at Subaru that I have a cracked block. I just dissassembled most of the engine at the machine shop at school tonight. Next week I am going to get the engine apart completely and see if it is a head gasket or the block. I'll keep you all posted. At any rate, the engine comes out of the car very easily and parts can be found relatively inexpensively. I am going to have an extra (balanced) crank, polished rods, wrist pins, etc from the extra block that I have. I also might have another block, if it turns out that you need to replace it, let me know. Also, if you have to rebuild, you can get J & E custom pistons, wrist pins and rings for $650 from Eric at Airborne Motorsports! Email me if you want any info. Since I am going through the same thing, I might be able to help you out.
Good Luck

Nathan
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Old 11-21-2002, 04:42 PM   #7
Subie Gal
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still in denial?? eh?
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Old 11-22-2002, 09:12 AM   #8
2.5GT
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Default Sounds all too familiar . . .

THE PSYCHOANALYSIS OF OWNING A DOHC ENGINE:
1st stage: denial
2nd stage: thermostat possibility
3rd stage: air in the coolant line possibility
4th stage: denial
5th stage: headgaskets/cracked block
6th stage: remorse

****IN DOHC ENGINES!!!!

Don't worry, dude. You're a member of a very special and ripped-off crowd of Subaru members

Jason
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Old 11-22-2002, 01:44 PM   #9
ciper
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Default

I wonder if subaru employees that are rumored to read this board see these messages?
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Old 11-22-2002, 08:16 PM   #10
imprez25
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Default

Sorry I have had very little time to even look at my car, until tonight. I think I have finaly reached the 5th stage of the psychoanalysis. I replaced the thermostat, and flushed the system. Started it up, ran it for about 20 minutes. Fine, just fine. Then I got cocky. I thought I would take it for a drive. Got about 50 yards out of my driveway.......Got Very Hot. Drove it back in the garage, parked it, shut it off, and screamed!!!


However, I later restarted it. Let it idle for about another 10 minutes, fine just fine. Reved the engine up to 3000 the Temp rose to higher than normal. I shut it off. I kept the ignition on so the fans would still run. I went to turn the heater blower up and when I did that the temp gaige droped down to cold. Also, I noticed the air coming out of the vents was not hot at all.

I think I am screwed!!


By the way, how much is a new engine? SHOC?/ vs. rebuilding or replacing the head gasket?
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Old 11-22-2002, 09:03 PM   #11
Fred Zaplitny
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by imprez25

By the way, how much is a new engine? SHOC?/ vs. rebuilding or replacing the head gasket?
A lot more money. Just get the head gasket fixed if that's the problem. Take it to a dealership, let them diagnose it and fix it if it's a head gasket. Then bend over and take it like a beotch in prison! Because it won't be a cheap fix any way you look at it.

Fred
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Old 11-22-2002, 11:43 PM   #12
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Default Fred, stop scaring the man

It may not be that bad. I replaced them myself on my EG33. Gaskets were $33. I had the cherry picker and engine stand, but these can be rented. I was lucky that is was just the gasket, not a cracked block/head.

I do agree with the others diagnosis though. Same problems I was seeing
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Old 11-23-2002, 06:26 PM   #13
jdk
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Exclamation

Be sure not to tolerate anything near H(HOT) on instrument panel gauge for any length of time(head warpage or even cracked cylinder wall)!
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Old 11-25-2002, 10:47 PM   #14
imprez25
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Default

Had a mechanic look at it tonight. Ran a compression test, no problem found. He said it seems like a water pump or an air pocket. He said though it was not the head gasket! (still in denial). Once we get this fixed, I'm out of this subaru thing. Love the AWD, hate having mechanic say "Oh my god!" when I open the hood. The Style is not worth the headaches!!
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Old 11-25-2002, 10:52 PM   #15
paultg
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Default

Quote:
Had a mechanic look at it tonight. Ran a compression test, no problem found. He said it seems like a water pump or an air pocket. He said though it was not the head gasket! (still in denial). Once we get this fixed, I'm out of this subaru thing. Love the AWD, hate having mechanic say "Oh my god!" when I open the hood. The Style is not worth the headaches!!
When Subaru head gaskets go it is not like the "normal" symptoms. The car is overheating because cylinder pressure is blowing coolant out of the motor (your overflow tank is over filling right?). This is why the oil and gas aren't mixing. The gasket is still sealing around the cylinders a bit (so the car will run fine, but under heavy load it will overheat). What the mechanic can't see is the broken gasket around a water jacket.

I have never seen a car like a subaru deal with gaskets. You can usually drive them around "easy" for quite a while because of the design of the head and where the gasket breaks. If your car is overheating in the garage, I'd get it to someone that knows subarus very well and have them diagnose the problem, before you spend any more wasted time/money.

But, cars are strange. Maybe it is something else. You never really can tell.

Good luck though,
Paul G.
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Old 11-26-2002, 12:19 AM   #16
rhdude
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2months ago i was in the same posistion man, I'm willing to bet you $10k its your headgasket or a cracked cyl. i wish I had taken pics of my blown headgaket for show... lol... and Be sure to use the newer style headgaskets available now for the EJ25D motor. You can do headgaskets yourself if you don't mind working on your car... It's not that hard to do IMHO...
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Old 11-26-2002, 06:02 AM   #17
wawazat
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Have your mechanic perform a combustion as analysis on the coolant. Its a qucik test to determine if there is a blown headgasket by analyzing the coolant.
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Old 11-26-2002, 06:25 PM   #18
imprez25
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Default

wawazat: That is what he did. It was a tube with a vacume line on one end and a small hole on the other. He poured a liquid in the tube and set the side with the hole on the radiator filler and hooked the other end to a vacume line. The vacume then sucked gasses through the liquid and if there was a blown head gasket should have turned the liquid yellow. However, it did not change, it stayed blue.

I will not have time to look at it again until next monday, but he is going to flush the system and inspect the water pump.

I am still skeptical about it not being a blown head gasket. The mechanic is a friend of mine and is doing this all for free/beer. He just doesn't want to see me spend a fortune at the dealership for something he can fix. I am seeing all of the symptoms that everyone else has had, but this type of thing does not happen to me.
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Old 11-27-2002, 11:55 AM   #19
Subie Gal
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Default

i'd recommend taking it to a qualified subaru repair shop.

although your friend may be very competent,
something of this nature is best off diagnosed
by those that inspect these engines day in and day out.

Jamie
www.subiegalracing.com
visit the SubieGal Rally forums
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Old 11-28-2002, 05:40 AM   #20
RoundtheBend
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Default Re: Sounds all too familiar . . .

Quote:
Originally posted by 2.5GT
THE PSYCHOANALYSIS OF OWNING A DOHC ENGINE:
1st stage: denial
2nd stage: thermostat possibility
3rd stage: air in the coolant line possibility
4th stage: denial
5th stage: headgaskets/cracked block
6th stage: remorse

****IN DOHC ENGINES!!!!
He's got a point... I went through the same process... overheating and spewing coolant. Took it to the dealership, was told it was the head gasket and probably the block was shot. Went through the denial stage, started the auto tech program at my local community college. Had the car diagnosed there and.... NOTHING. Well, turns out it was misdiagnosed but I'd already rodded out the radiator and replaced the thermostat by then. Still overheating, had it retested at school (by a different student) and got blown head gasket (again). Well, no more denial, now I have to figure out what to do with it. Ended up taking the motor out of the car myself and taking it to a tech to have him disassemble it and tell me the bad news. Just found out on Monday that it was indeed the head gasket (both sides) but the block is not toast. So you never know what your final problem may be, could just simply be head gasket.

If you're replacing the engine at the dealership... I was quoted somewhere near $3K.

-Erik
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Old 11-28-2002, 11:45 AM   #21
Tattoo Collector
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Default

I just pulled the heads off my block last night. Upon examination, I noticed that 3 or the cylinders looked like the paint on the side of the head gasket facing the block had been melted and there was a carbon deposit mark from the combustion chamber to the water jackets on the deck of the block. I was sure at that point that the block was fine, and I was pissed b/c I already bought a new block and have custom pistons on their way! Anyway, I was then looking at the block and back in the water jacket of the cylinder that looked like the head gasket hadn't completely blown and noticed something. First off, this cylinder had strange marks in it, that the other ones didn't have (straight scoring marks parallel to the piston travel). Secondly, there was a strange growth of something white around the bolt that holds the block together in the back of the water jacket. If the cylinder was going to crack, where would it do so? I have pictures and I am going to post them as soon as I get them developed.
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Old 11-28-2002, 03:03 PM   #22
jdk
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Arrow

The straight scoring marks could be the machined bore onthe outside of the cyl. wall,clearance for the head of block bolts. The light green/white powdery residue is typical of the engine coolant.

The most likely place the cylinder will crack is the same side the blown headgasket is on (both cylinders). The engine coolant can super-heat into steam causing shock to casting,and can quickly be followed by much cooler coolant...quick temp. change.
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Old 11-28-2002, 07:58 PM   #23
Tattoo Collector
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jdk
The straight scoring marks could be the machined bore onthe outside of the cyl. wall,clearance for the head of block bolts. The light green/white powdery residue is typical of the engine coolant.

The most likely place the cylinder will crack is the same side the blown headgasket is on (both cylinders). The engine coolant can super-heat into steam causing shock to casting,and can quickly be followed by much cooler coolant...quick temp. change.
Ok, the scoring marks and the residue stuff is on the only cylinder that doesn't have the head gasket problem! The residue is a white-ish, gelatinous goo on the head of one of the bolts that holds the block together in the water jacket next to the cylinder that the head gasket is still good. I forgot to look at what number cylinder it is, but I suspected it was number 3 being that that one is the one that is synonymous for not getting enough fuel on these cars.(reason for parallel fuel line mod) From what I remember it is the cylinder that is in the back of the engine on the drivers side.
The idea that the scoring marks are caused by the bolts makes sense, but why are they only on the cylinder that isn't having the head gasket problem?
By the way, I am trying to figure out if this block is still good, that is why I am inspecting it so scrutinously. I do have pictures of the heads, head gaskets and I tried to get a picture of the bolt and the stuff on it. They will be posted as soon as I get them devevloped.
Thanks.

Nathan
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Old 12-01-2002, 02:43 AM   #24
Tattoo Collector
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Black Mica Pearl

Default The pics as I promised!

I have some pics in this link. Look at the ones with the cylinder heads/head gaskets. If someone call answer some questions about the clutch, that would be cool too. Oh, I couldn't get a good shot of that white, gooey residue on the bolt in the back of the water jacket after all. When I get the block apart, I'll have to see if I can get more detailed pics.
Thanks.

Nathan

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wannab...Subaru&.view=l
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:21 PM   #25
imprez25
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Default

Well, it is the head gaskets. I have it in the shop right now getting fixed. I will try to get over there to take some pictures to post. The price of getting it fixed was not as much as I thought it would be, around $1000. The way some people were acting I thought it was going to be like $3k or something. Well I will keep everyone up to date on the car. Thank you to everyone who PM to tell me their stories, I'm glad I am not the only one with this problem.




DOHC owners of the world UNITE!!
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