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Old 11-27-2002, 06:31 PM   #1
RENEMARTIN
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Thumbs down Proecm? Yea Or Nea

I have cobb CAI and pulleys, and borla headers w/ high flow cat and shomung cat back. What do you think of the PROECM ? Does anyone have my set up w/ the proecm and what do you think about it?
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Old 11-27-2002, 10:22 PM   #2
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This should be interesting. I haven't heard anything about this in a looooooooong time.

As far as I know, I think the concensus is that it works for a while, but the ECU learns its way around it. I haven't even heard of people selling it lately.

Garret
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Old 11-27-2002, 11:20 PM   #3
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I would contact Cobb. I met Ethan Cobb at the Curry Clash and he was talking about a chip for N/A. I couldn't hear much about it because his stand was right next to some redneck band. But call them up and ask about it, I'm sure they'd be happy to help. And, if you do call 'em, post up what they say.. I'm interested as well.
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Old 12-01-2002, 04:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
As far as I know, I think the concensus is that it works for a while, but the ECU learns its way around it. I haven't even heard of people selling it lately.
That is incorrect. The main changes the chip makes to improve power cannot be unlearned or over ridden by the ECU - especially since the areas it messes with are not involved in closed loop .
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Old 12-01-2002, 11:40 AM   #5
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I had one and sold it a few weeks after I bought it. With the turbo, I was happy at first and noticed gains from the chip.. then I found myself having to adjust my SAFC settings like every other day. The car started to bog... so I took it off, car ran fine and yes, I tried an ECU reset with the chip in, did'nt do crap...

IMHO, take your money and go buy some borla's, or even a type-R sticker, or hmm, maybe even some windsheild wiper LED's.... cause they all have better gains than this chip...

~Brian

**DISCLAIMER**- The views represented in this post were strictly based upon personal experience, other users may have had better results.
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Old 12-02-2002, 11:02 AM   #6
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Depending on the mods you have, you could spend the money elsewhere but from my experience I like the ProECM (I and currently running it) and am awaiting the release of the new chip from IWTU.
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Old 02-12-2003, 01:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImprezaRS dot com

That is incorrect. The main changes the chip makes to improve power cannot be unlearned or over ridden by the ECU - especially since the areas it messes with are not involved in closed loop .
I am quite curious about this remark. The proecm taps into the coolant temperature sensor and the vehicle speed sensor. You can't do much of anything with the ECU by altering the vehicle speed reading, but you can do interesting things by changing the coolant temperature sensor.

My question is, how in the world do you modify the coolant temperature without affecting things in closed loop?

When the ECU is in closed loop, it will use many available sensors, including O2 and coolant temp, to modify the fuel maps. The "chip" does not require that you tap the MAP/MAF sensor on an N/A car, so there is no way (according to what I have read) for the "chip" to know when the ECU is in closed loop. Therefore, it will most certainly "mess" with areas involved with closed loop, correct?

Hint:
Telling me I am wrong is not a very convincing logical argument, especially since I can back up everything I have said with internet references and direct quotes from my brother's Subaru tech manuals.
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:41 PM   #8
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I wouldn't say your wrong......however your approach to how the chip works is incorrect.

I'm not going to say I know exactly how the chip works......but I will say that yes altering the speed sensor will do something.....leave that wire disconnected and see what happens.

Think of the piggy back chips & ECU like a teacher/pupil relationship.......the chip is teaching the ECU new things.....the ECU retains that.....and becomes "smarter"

I know these are not definitive answers......but you're not going to get definitive answers from the people that know......so just lay off of it.
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Old 02-12-2003, 07:01 PM   #9
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well said legacy777!!

even if it's only 4-5hp & 4-lflbs across the board, which has been shown in a recent dyno plot - that's more useable power (area under the curve) than a $500+ exhaust system, and people have no problem shelling out the loot for things such as that....

and yes, it probably is $10-40 in parts - do you suggest that they sell them for the component cost?!? A forged wheel can cost more than $400ea - but is only $10 worth of aluminum....

whatever.... I just get tired of people pissing on everything, and you sir have had a lot to drink!

good luck to you and your brother

-Chad
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Old 02-12-2003, 09:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by legacy777
I wouldn't say your wrong......however your approach to how the chip works is incorrect.

I'm not going to say I know exactly how the chip works......but I will say that yes altering the speed sensor will do something.....leave that wire disconnected and see what happens.
That's fine. The "chip" can use the speed sensor all it wants. It still won't know if the car is in closed loop or not. The whole point was that Larry made a statement here that appears to be completely inaccurate. This re-opens the possibility that the ECU may be able to learn around it.
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Old 02-13-2003, 01:53 AM   #11
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Ive seen more complaints then recomendations for the most part, so I have to say nea. Reflash the ECU instead.
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Old 02-13-2003, 02:11 AM   #12
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Originally posted by Kostamojen Ive seen more complaints then recomendations for the most part, so I have to say nea. Reflash the ECU instead.
Have you seen the 50 million other positive threads that bugbomb ruined? Most of us are tired of it and give up on posting...
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Old 02-13-2003, 09:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Farfrumwork

whatever.... I just get tired of people pissing on everything, and you sir have had a lot to drink!
What if the ECU is capable of learning around the effects of the "chip?" Wouldn't that 4 HP essentially become nothing? $250 worth of nothing, at that? That $500 exhaust system is sounding better and better...

(Here's the long part that some of you disinterested parties may want to skip over)
Anyway, What can I say? I love to get into technical discussions. I learn a lot in the process, and I even share some knowledge with others. Discussing the proecm chip alone, I have learned tons about engine management and gathered many sources for reference. I don't really care if people really want to buy it. I am only interested in seeing what it actually does and if it would actually be a benefit for my car. I have seen many people claim that it made a big difference. I have seen and met many people (some of whom I trust greatly) who say they felt nothing and saw no benefit in their 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. I will not tell anyone that they cannot or should not buy their product, but I will always be curious as to how it really works (until I figure it out). For now, I will enjoy learning and hopefully dispelling any inaccurate information I find. This is a technical forum. I believe we should all work hard to keep it accurate. If I have ruined every proecm thread, as Larry says, it has been because I have asked too many of the right questions. The only responses I have gotten from anyone were weak, technically-oriented arguments with no documents or references to back them up. For instance, Here is an old thread where proecm explains their frustration with me right off the bat in the first post. They explain that I "can gain a certain insight in a complex system by reading technical documents," but they fail to point me at any technical documents that support their argument. I even asked for such, but never received any links or quotes from references.

If Larry could come back at me with a published reference that explained how the ECU can use the vehicle speed sensor to engage closed-loop operation, I would gladly read it, learn something, shut my mouth, and probably think of another question. However, when Larry says "Wrong," it doesn't really prove his point too well.

It also doesn't help that I am stubborn, so I probably won't stop discussing the "chip" until I completely figure it out or there is no one left that wants to discuss it with me.
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Old 02-13-2003, 09:40 AM   #14
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Bugbomb, you've been in enough discussions about this chip and I'd think that by now you'd have a much better understanding of how the chip works. I don't mean to get on your case but please go away. You have some valid questions, most have been answered in other posts... whether or not you've picked up on the answer is another story. The manufacturer has decided to keep much of the chips operation a secret... does this really surprise you? I don't recall the Colonel's Secret Recipe being broadcast in KFC's comercials . Kost, the chip is not a plug and play Link, it won't give you crazy power but it does definately affect the stock ECU's maps. I've figured out 90% of its function and I've told the retailer(s) that I'd not post the info in open forums. Kost, if you want an offline discussion PM me about how the chip works. A reflash may be an option for you but remember, a reflash is permanent (until the next reflash)... the ProECM is not, if it glitches you can remove it.
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:38 AM   #15
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Thats just the thing BOY. Some of us including BugBomb have figured out how this chip works but there are two things that spawn these thread interuptions: 1. The manufacturers claim these chips do things they can't possibly do considering the wires to the ECU that are tapped, 2. The manufacturers won't openly admit that we have figured out what it does because it would justify our argument against there claims.

Brad
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:51 AM   #16
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Oh contrare, I was basically asked to drop out of another thread b/c I was getting a little too close for the manufacturer's comfort. As to the open/closed loop argument, open loop must be based on the engine's operational paramaters immediately prior to the CL/OL switch. The ProECM is modifying the ECT signal and the ECM adjusts its maps accordingly, when it transitions to OL the map will also be shifted... not that big of a leap of faith.
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Old 02-13-2003, 02:30 PM   #17
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Exactly. Infact if you read through previous discussions Bugbomb himself points out that the ProECM chip is the equivelent to a 50 cent resistor that taps into the coolent temp sensor lead which fools the ecu into thinking the coolent is colder then it actually is, because of this the ecu advances timing and richens the mixture in order to warm the engine up. The resister can't effect the coolent temp sensor line enough to cause it to run in Open Loop Mode, like it does when you first start your car cold, or you would get a check engine light. This is the only thing this chip could do based on the Coolent Temp Sensor Tap. We know the Vehicle Speed Sensor tap is there to eliminate the top speed governor that exists on a select few subarus.

One other claim that frustrates the scheptics is that this chip helps your ECU actually learn faster and better.
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Old 02-13-2003, 03:12 PM   #18
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The chip does more than the resistor mod. Like Legacy777 said, leave the VSS disconnected and the chip freaks. There is processing going on inside the box. The speed sensor is the reference value that the "chip" uses to make its adjustments. There are stored tables that are accessed based on input signal from both the ECT and VSS. As the ECT signal varies up or down the output signal is modified to maintain a set outcome, this will be accelleration dependent (i.e. you can reference the differential speed to get a pretty good idea on RPM value, OL/CL operation, etc) As for making the ECU learn faster, they are very hush hush on that one... I've got some thoughts but they aren't even humoring me. Basically, look at it this way: I got the chip used and I was a huge skeptic. At first I didn't really notice much, other than no more CEL (still trying to figure that one out as I always get an evap emissions code) and more balanced power band... the butt dyno was unimpressed. Well over time I never really thoght about it, until the day I took it out. Night and day difference in the car. I used to stand by the chip b/c I ccould say the car felt better... not really faster but better. After I removed it I can say that the power band is definately shifted, more flat more beefy, more fun
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Old 02-13-2003, 08:33 PM   #19
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My Pro ECM no longer does anything except make my car produce black smoke. It was installed perfectly and the car ran fine for 5-6 months with the chip. Then all the sudden my car flipped out and rejected it I guess? No one I have contacted has helped me with this matter, and if anyone wants this thing they can have it for free.

As far as performance... the car had some more low rpm tourque... Maybe just richened the mix a bit at low RPM?

If I could go back and get my money back I would. At least then I could buy some hallucinogens to make me feel better about my money going down the toilette.

I've bitten my tongue long enough on this one...

not placing blame on anyone however.
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Old 02-13-2003, 08:49 PM   #20
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The VSS wire got accidently disconnected (bad crimp job on my part) The car really didn't run worth crap. I have since pulled the chip out and it did run much better, less bogging, etc.

I will probably put it back in next week or the week after to see how it does.
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Old 02-13-2003, 09:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
My Pro ECM no longer does anything except make my car produce black smoke. It was installed perfectly and the car ran fine for 5-6 months with the chip. Then all the sudden my car flipped out and rejected it I guess? No one I have contacted has helped me with this matter, and if anyone wants this thing they can have it for free.
ProECM has offered via email to replace the chip, says he never heard back from you.

Quote:
Infact if you read through previous discussions Bugbomb himself points out that the ProECM chip is the equivelent to a 50 cent resistor
No, it does much more than just a resistor. How can you make this claim unless you've disassembled one and reverse engineered it?

Quote:
The resister can't effect the coolent temp sensor line enough to cause it to run in Open Loop Mode
Go back & read, I never said it does that.

Quote:
One other claim that frustrates the scheptics is that this chip helps your ECU actually learn faster and better.
I wish to God I could tell you how or why it does this, but I have a non-disclosure agree to keep selling them.

Quote:
The VSS wire got accidently disconnected (bad crimp job on my part) The car really didn't run worth crap.
Yes, this will put the ECU into limp mode and also lower the rev limit to approx 4000rpm.
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Old 02-13-2003, 09:37 PM   #22
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Yes, this will put the ECU into limp mode and also lower the rev limit to approx 4000rpm.
It didn't do that. I have a T2 chip.....not sure if it's different for the PROECM, or how it differs for OBD1, but the wire hooks up to the engine tachometer output. From the wiring diagrams I have seen, this goes to the TCU and the gauge cluster.

The wire from the ECU was still connected to the chip, but was disconnected from whereever it was going to.

I think this had the most affect on the TCU, but I could be wrong. I didn't get any CEL, tach still worked fine. it just had a SEVERE lag/bog....absolutely zero power until 4000 rpm.
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:42 PM   #23
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Dolphin Overton: My Pro ECM no longer does anything except make my car produce black smoke. It was installed perfectly and the car ran fine for 5-6 months with the chip. Then all the sudden my car flipped out and rejected it I guess? No one I have contacted has helped me with this matter, and if anyone wants this thing they can have it for free.


free? i'll take it! i'm a po' college student. maybe we can work something out, if you're serious

-y
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Old 02-14-2003, 12:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by ychan
Dolphin Overton: My Pro ECM no longer does anything except make my car produce black smoke. It was installed perfectly and the car ran fine for 5-6 months with the chip. Then all the sudden my car flipped out and rejected it I guess? No one I have contacted has helped me with this matter, and if anyone wants this thing they can have it for free.


free? i'll take it! i'm a po' college student. maybe we can work something out, if you're serious

-y
yeah, you can have it, but it's broken. I am a poor college student as well.

I wasn't aware Pro ECM sent me an e-mail... Logically, I probably would have replied if I could have gotten it replaced. Maybe I just never got the E-mail. He could try to e-mail me again.
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImprezaRS dot com
Have you seen the 50 million other positive threads that bugbomb ruined? Most of us are tired of it and give up on posting...
Ya, I read all the glaring positive threads from people who just installed them and loved the power increase.

Then, I go and read the same members posts several months down the line, including people I know personally who have them...

I'm not going to fight over this, just voicing my opinion.
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