Borla headers or S-AFC?

IggDawg · 12-02-2002, 10:09 AM

I'm looking at 300-ish to blow on christmas goodies. Would it be best to get a AFC or just headers? I'm thinkin the AFC wouled be the best way to go, but headers sound like a good idea too. Also, I'm going turbo eventually, and IIRC a AFC is good to have around for that. What do y'all think?

-IggDawg

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rhdude · 12-02-2002, 10:44 AM

if you are going turbo, get the S-AFC....
if you are going N/A, get the headers....
I have both btw

~Brian

IggDawg · 12-02-2002, 11:00 AM

Risking sounding like a n00b... Which one will give me the most gains if I'm stock other than intake? God... it hurt even to ask. Normally I'd side with headers, but from what I know our WOT runs a pitiful fuel map, and with a 3 inch intake, 3 inch airbox mod, and TB mod, I'm thinking a modified fuel delivery might benefit me a little.

-IggDawg

BOY · 12-02-2002, 11:13 AM

Actually, unless you like sound the Borlas are not worth the $$ (they are the lowest power producing scooby header). The S-AFC will help somewhat (couple of ponies) unless you're pretty highly modded (or having A/F problems like leaning out). For similar money you could look at a flywheel or clutch or pullies. The S-AFC is a good idea for larger boost applications but for smaller (RHB5, TD03 <6 psi) a RRFPR, parallel fuel rails and a walbro pump usually do the trick nicely. One other thing to consider especially if you're going turbo would be an ITC, more control over the timing = good! Plus the OE ECU doesn't "learn around" timing adjustments.

munkis · 12-02-2002, 11:26 AM

I would say SAFC, but then you will need a way to tune the SAFC, you cant just punch in some settings. Do you have an EGT and A/F gauge? Or an AWD dyno close to have it tunned?

I too feel the headers just make noise, I dont think anyone has gotten any substantial gains from headers on a scooby.

Jay McDade

Silverscooby27 · 12-02-2002, 04:00 PM

Between Headers and AFC: headers. If you think Borla headers won't do much, AFC won't do squat if all you have is an intake, especially if you have no way to tune it (i.e. an A/F gauge, EGT gauge and an AWD dyno). Stock ECU can handle the mixture just fine. In fact, there really isn't all THAT much to tune A/F-wise even with a full aftermarket exhaust and intake. If anything, my car was running too rich.

BOY · 12-02-2002, 04:01 PM

That's why I suggested an ITC, more to be gained than tweaking air/fuel mix. You may also consider [flame suit on] a ProECM. I have one, you can read my review on scoobymods.com but I can say it was $$ well spent... and rumor has it there is a new firmware update (v3.0) coming out real soon. [/flame suit on]

Silverscooby27 · 12-02-2002, 04:09 PM

I've got the ProECM too, and like it as well. In fact, I bought one, gave it to a friend, and then bought another.

IggDawg · 12-02-2002, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverscooby27
I've got the ProECM too, and like it as well. In fact, I bought one, gave it to a friend, and then bought another.

Can I be your friend

-IggDawg

Silverscooby27 · 12-02-2002, 05:00 PM

Point was that if the question was, "Would I buy it again", the answer would be "yes".

How many Iggpoints would the ProECM be worth?

DanzBorin · 12-02-2002, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverscooby27
How many Iggpoints would the ProECM be worth?

eleventy bajillion...

boy, how and where can we get a firmware upgrade?

Impulsivegoat23 · 12-03-2002, 12:58 AM

This was my exact quandry. S-AFC or Borla Headers. I had just put on my 3" intake and Apex'i N1 Exhaust. Either way I had planned on getteng the other soon. I went with header. Now I have to buy the CEL fix. Anyone know if I'll still pass emissions after putting on the CEL wire in fix? Will the ITC be a better idea for my next purchase? What kind of gains will it produce in comparison with the AFC? I have heard about our computers learning around the S-AFC's anyways. I just need to find a place for all these gadgets on/in my dash...hehe.

BOY · 12-03-2002, 09:35 AM

Danz, not sure if v3.0 will fit into the ProECM box or if its just a new chip release... trying to get more info from the company.

The ITC will allow timing control which is a must have for tweaking power and a must have if you may go F/I in the future. The ProECM provides timing control and fuel trim modification but it is not user tunable. Price wise the S-AFC and the ITC are both more expensive than the ProECM/TC-II but they are user programable (and have bling bling factor). Yes, the 00+ ECUs will learn around the S-AFC but, realistically, you're only going to see a couple of ponies anyway (unless you have some serious mixture issues). I'm also trying to ferret out the details on the Greddy Emanage and why it has not worked with the subaru ECUs b/c for the money it is by far the most promising piggyback out there.

IggDawg · 12-03-2002, 09:40 AM

well in any event, the headers don't do a heck of a lot either do they? I'm looking mostly for sound a little bit nicer of a high end.

-IggDawg

BOY · 12-03-2002, 09:52 AM

Igg, I've got a complete custom exhaust (headers, high flow, cat back) that only cost me ~$300 including muffler. PM me if you want more details on how to have one made locally.

RaceCarRiot · 12-03-2002, 10:17 AM

if you're going FI, i would just save my money, and figure out what i need at that point in time. i would go ahead and get the headers...you'll see more of a gain than a SAFC alone (for now anyways), and at least they'll still be useful once you turbo the car (better spool up), unless you go the 'factory turbo' route, and need to swap the crossmember.

the chip would be a good choice as well as there really aren't any drawbacks other than having to run higher grade gas to take advantage of it...but if you're going FI, then you're going to need user control of your timing.

pdlindor · 12-03-2002, 01:18 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the S-AFC was still useful at WOT on the 00-02's, which is where you'd want the adjustments made anyway.

I have also heard that the S-AFC can be used to reduce/eliminate the WOT bog caused by running uber-rich.

~Paul

joefocker20 · 12-04-2002, 01:37 AM

Well, search for some of Patrick Olsens threads, he gained around 7 HP from tuning his S-AFC.

Swano · 12-04-2002, 11:32 AM

Joe, Patrick has i/h/e and cams....

Phil =)

RebelINS · 12-04-2002, 02:23 PM

I thought that in a previous discussion it was proven that the whole ECU learning around the S-AFC was a myth. I don't remember the thread, but I am sure a search could bring it up.

-Wes

12-02-2002, 10:09 AM	#1
IggDawg Celebrity Guest Star Moderator Member#: 10648 Join Date: Sep 2001 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Sort of Boston, MA Vehicle: 2002 Escort... D: Mostly kind of white	Borla headers or S-AFC? I'm looking at 300-ish to blow on christmas goodies. Would it be best to get a AFC or just headers? I'm thinkin the AFC wouled be the best way to go, but headers sound like a good idea too. Also, I'm going turbo eventually, and IIRC a AFC is good to have around for that. What do y'all think? -IggDawg * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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12-02-2002, 10:44 AM	#2
rhdude Scooby Guru Member#: 6637 Join Date: May 2001 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Manassas Vehicle: 2009 Acura MDX Sport	if you are going turbo, get the S-AFC.... if you are going N/A, get the headers.... I have both btw ~Brian

12-02-2002, 11:00 AM	#3
IggDawg Celebrity Guest Star Moderator Member#: 10648 Join Date: Sep 2001 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Sort of Boston, MA Vehicle: 2002 Escort... D: Mostly kind of white	Risking sounding like a n00b... Which one will give me the most gains if I'm stock other than intake? God... it hurt even to ask. Normally I'd side with headers, but from what I know our WOT runs a pitiful fuel map, and with a 3 inch intake, 3 inch airbox mod, and TB mod, I'm thinking a modified fuel delivery might benefit me a little. -IggDawg

12-02-2002, 11:13 AM	#4
BOY NASIOC Supporter Member#: 232 Join Date: Sep 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Ft Wayne, IN Vehicle: 99 RS-T RIP 02 Forster-S	Actually, unless you like sound the Borlas are not worth the $$ (they are the lowest power producing scooby header). The S-AFC will help somewhat (couple of ponies) unless you're pretty highly modded (or having A/F problems like leaning out). For similar money you could look at a flywheel or clutch or pullies. The S-AFC is a good idea for larger boost applications but for smaller (RHB5, TD03 <6 psi) a RRFPR, parallel fuel rails and a walbro pump usually do the trick nicely. One other thing to consider especially if you're going turbo would be an ITC, more control over the timing = good! Plus the OE ECU doesn't "learn around" timing adjustments.

12-02-2002, 11:26 AM	#5
munkis Scooby Guru Member#: 1847 Join Date: Jul 2000 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: brokenmotorsports.com Vehicle: Team Broken: V6 GF rallyarmor.com	I would say SAFC, but then you will need a way to tune the SAFC, you cant just punch in some settings. Do you have an EGT and A/F gauge? Or an AWD dyno close to have it tunned? I too feel the headers just make noise, I dont think anyone has gotten any substantial gains from headers on a scooby. Jay McDade

12-02-2002, 04:00 PM	#6
Silverscooby27 Scooby Specialist Member#: 9124 Join Date: Aug 2001 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Dayton, OH Vehicle: 2013 Mustang GT/CS 2013 Ford Focus ST	Between Headers and AFC: headers. If you think Borla headers won't do much, AFC won't do squat if all you have is an intake, especially if you have no way to tune it (i.e. an A/F gauge, EGT gauge and an AWD dyno). Stock ECU can handle the mixture just fine. In fact, there really isn't all THAT much to tune A/F-wise even with a full aftermarket exhaust and intake. If anything, my car was running too rich.

12-02-2002, 04:01 PM	#7
BOY NASIOC Supporter Member#: 232 Join Date: Sep 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Ft Wayne, IN Vehicle: 99 RS-T RIP 02 Forster-S	That's why I suggested an ITC, more to be gained than tweaking air/fuel mix. You may also consider [flame suit on] a ProECM. I have one, you can read my review on scoobymods.com but I can say it was $$ well spent... and rumor has it there is a new firmware update (v3.0) coming out real soon. [/flame suit on]

12-02-2002, 04:09 PM	#8
Silverscooby27 Scooby Specialist Member#: 9124 Join Date: Aug 2001 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Dayton, OH Vehicle: 2013 Mustang GT/CS 2013 Ford Focus ST	I've got the ProECM too, and like it as well. In fact, I bought one, gave it to a friend, and then bought another.

12-02-2002, 05:00 PM	#10
Silverscooby27 Scooby Specialist Member#: 9124 Join Date: Aug 2001 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Dayton, OH Vehicle: 2013 Mustang GT/CS 2013 Ford Focus ST	Point was that if the question was, "Would I buy it again", the answer would be "yes". How many Iggpoints would the ProECM be worth?

12-03-2002, 12:58 AM	#12
Impulsivegoat23 Scooby Newbie Member#: 25761 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Smyrna,TN Vehicle: 2002 2.5 RS Alpine White	This was my exact quandry. S-AFC or Borla Headers. I had just put on my 3" intake and Apex'i N1 Exhaust. Either way I had planned on getteng the other soon. I went with header. Now I have to buy the CEL fix. Anyone know if I'll still pass emissions after putting on the CEL wire in fix? Will the ITC be a better idea for my next purchase? What kind of gains will it produce in comparison with the AFC? I have heard about our computers learning around the S-AFC's anyways. I just need to find a place for all these gadgets on/in my dash...hehe.

12-03-2002, 09:35 AM	#13
BOY NASIOC Supporter Member#: 232 Join Date: Sep 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Ft Wayne, IN Vehicle: 99 RS-T RIP 02 Forster-S	Danz, not sure if v3.0 will fit into the ProECM box or if its just a new chip release... trying to get more info from the company. The ITC will allow timing control which is a must have for tweaking power and a must have if you may go F/I in the future. The ProECM provides timing control and fuel trim modification but it is not user tunable. Price wise the S-AFC and the ITC are both more expensive than the ProECM/TC-II but they are user programable (and have bling bling factor). Yes, the 00+ ECUs will learn around the S-AFC but, realistically, you're only going to see a couple of ponies anyway (unless you have some serious mixture issues). I'm also trying to ferret out the details on the Greddy Emanage and why it has not worked with the subaru ECUs b/c for the money it is by far the most promising piggyback out there.

12-03-2002, 09:40 AM	#14
IggDawg Celebrity Guest Star Moderator Member#: 10648 Join Date: Sep 2001 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Sort of Boston, MA Vehicle: 2002 Escort... D: Mostly kind of white	well in any event, the headers don't do a heck of a lot either do they? I'm looking mostly for sound a little bit nicer of a high end. -IggDawg

12-03-2002, 09:52 AM	#15
BOY NASIOC Supporter Member#: 232 Join Date: Sep 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Ft Wayne, IN Vehicle: 99 RS-T RIP 02 Forster-S	Igg, I've got a complete custom exhaust (headers, high flow, cat back) that only cost me ~$300 including muffler. PM me if you want more details on how to have one made locally.

12-03-2002, 10:17 AM	#16
RaceCarRiot Scooby Specialist Member#: 6542 Join Date: May 2001 Chapter/Region: South East Vehicle: 1997 Ver IV silver	if you're going FI, i would just save my money, and figure out what i need at that point in time. i would go ahead and get the headers...you'll see more of a gain than a SAFC alone (for now anyways), and at least they'll still be useful once you turbo the car (better spool up), unless you go the 'factory turbo' route, and need to swap the crossmember. the chip would be a good choice as well as there really aren't any drawbacks other than having to run higher grade gas to take advantage of it...but if you're going FI, then you're going to need user control of your timing.

12-03-2002, 01:18 PM	#17
pdlindor Scooby Newbie Member#: 7446 Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Madison, WI Vehicle: 2002 Impreza RS 2009 Forester Limited	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the S-AFC was still useful at WOT on the 00-02's, which is where you'd want the adjustments made anyway. I have also heard that the S-AFC can be used to reduce/eliminate the WOT bog caused by running uber-rich. ~Paul

12-04-2002, 01:37 AM	#18
joefocker20 Scooby Specialist Member#: 13745 Join Date: Dec 2001 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Colorado Springs, CO Vehicle: 2004 STI Silver	Well, search for some of Patrick Olsens threads, he gained around 7 HP from tuning his S-AFC.

12-04-2002, 11:32 AM	#19
Swano Scooby Newbie Member#: 19114 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Oxford, UK Vehicle: 2002 2.5TS Blue Ridge	Joe, Patrick has i/h/e and cams.... Phil =)

12-04-2002, 02:23 PM	#20
RebelINS Scooby Specialist Member#: 2953 Join Date: Nov 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Rochester, MI, USA Vehicle: 2000 Impreza 2.5RS 2005 Impreza WRX STi	I thought that in a previous discussion it was proven that the whole ECU learning around the S-AFC was a myth. I don't remember the thread, but I am sure a search could bring it up. -Wes