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Old 12-02-2002, 02:50 PM   #1
outback2.5HO
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Default Re: H-6 Swap into '97 Outback

Have been thinking about doing this for awhile, but a newly blown head gasket is motivating me more than ever!

What will it take to make an EG33 swap into my '97 Outback? My tranny/clutch/flywheel are in great shape as is all other running gear. It took awhile to rebuild my 2.5 the last time, and thought stabbing an H-6 would be better and quicker than another rebuild. Also, what kind of rpm's is that engine turning on the highway at 70 w/ 4:11s? What year 5 speed tranny has 3:90 gears?

Any help is greatly appreciated...
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Old 12-02-2002, 04:03 PM   #2
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I think teh only real problem would be jambing it in there. That's a mighty big engine.

Also, the exhaust on a SVX is dual with a bridge pipe. So fitting that under the car would be a trick also.

-IggDawg
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Old 12-02-2002, 04:21 PM   #3
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The engine will fit, tightly... I've seen one in a 91 legacy w/ a supercharger, can't remember the link though.

The exhaust issues are easy enough to get resolved. Just trying to find out how hard it will be to get that H-6 shoehorned in there, and what it will take to make it run...

Where's SVXtreme? He knows this routine.
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Old 12-02-2002, 06:24 PM   #4
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Why not try to source the new higher power six cylinder? I know the ER27 is shorter than the EG33 but its peak power is very low.
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Old 12-02-2002, 06:50 PM   #5
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Default I'm not sure I can help...

but I do have a non-running EG33 on a stand in my garage. The dimensions are 31" wide x 24" tall (pan to intake) x 24" long (acc. drive pulley to transmission mount surface). I think your biggest concern will be the distance from the motor mounts to the front of the engine and radiator clearance. Exhaust is easily, though maybe not cheaply done at a custom shop. Keep in mind you'll also have to handle electronics (six injectors, MAF NOT MAP, etc.). The engine will bolt to your transmission, which is a good thing.

A friend of mine who has converted his SVX to a 5 speed using the 4.11 diff ratio AND the .785 5th gear says he is uncomfortable with the engine speed while cruising on the freeway. I think he was turning 3200-3300 rpm, but cannot be sure. I'll see if I can confirm.

Lotta work ahead. Good luck if you choose to go ahead with it.

Todd
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Old 12-02-2002, 07:37 PM   #6
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ciper,
The EG33 is the highest HP 6 cyl. that ever came from Subaru (230hp). That is the SVX engine. The 2.7 is the XT6 engine, that was rated for 140hp. The new H-6 in the Outback is the EZ30 rated at 212hp.

wawazat,
Thanks for the measurements, that'll help. My car is already equipped with a MAF, so that shouldn't be a problem. I am planning to use a complete EG33 engine with the stock manifold/injectors/coil etc...Not sure if the ECU will work, so that is still one of my unanswered questions. Will also need to go with an SVX fuel pump to provide more fuel. What's wrong with your EG33?
The gears are turning...
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
A friend of mine who has converted his SVX to a 5 speed using the 4.11 diff ratio AND the .785 5th gear says he is uncomfortable with the engine speed while cruising on the freeway. I think he was turning 3200-3300 rpm, but cannot be sure. I'll see if I can confirm.
And the OB has a 4.44 diff ratio. Will make it quick off the line though An ECU swap should solve engine management difficulties.

/M
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Old 12-03-2002, 01:51 PM   #8
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outback2.5HO: I stand corrected! For some reason I thought it was 212. Weird thing is that carpoint lists some years as having a 239HP engine.
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Old 12-03-2002, 05:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
wawazat,
Thanks for the measurements, that'll help. My car is already equipped with a MAF, so that shouldn't be a problem. I am planning to use a complete EG33 engine with the stock manifold/injectors/coil etc...Not sure if the ECU will work, so that is still one of my unanswered questions. Will also need to go with an SVX fuel pump to provide more fuel. What's wrong with your EG33?
The gears are turning...
I bought a junk SVX for parts. It was pranged something nasty. Surprised the driver lived. The impact wiped out the left side of the car and cracked the cam supports, valve covers, cam drive gear, belt guards. I didn't pay much for it and have already recouped some of my investment selling parts.

FWIW, I know a guy selling an EG33 from a junked SVX in your neck of the woods. He also has the electronics and maybe the fuel pump. He's asking $1000 for the engine. Car had 106K when it was wrecked.

Todd
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Old 12-03-2002, 07:15 PM   #10
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That sounds good...

Where is he located? What year is the car? Want to get a later ECU (95-6) that's OBDII if possible. That'll make troubleshooting much easier. I think that the intakes stayed the same, so firing an earlier engine with a later ECU shouldn't be an issue.

Still trying to gather all of the info I can before I completely commit to the project. But if it can be done, it will be done.
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:30 PM   #11
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i thought the XT6 was rated at 165hp?
oh well, its fast enough with no suspension
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:35 PM   #12
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Those XT6s do haul butt with the NOmatic (pneumatic) suspension they come with...
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:49 PM   #13
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Default He's in Beaverton

The car it came from is a '92 (OBD-I).

Todd
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Old 12-03-2002, 09:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
Those XT6s do haul butt with the NOmatic (pneumatic) suspension they come with...
actually they do when its functional. it would lower at speed, raise at slower speeds. but now its full time ghetto low. hard as a rock. good enough to spin nuts on dry pavement though
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Old 12-05-2002, 01:22 PM   #15
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Need more help please...

Want to get this project going, and get my car back on the road with 230 ponies.
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Old 12-06-2002, 03:44 AM   #16
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bump
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
wawazat,
Thanks for the measurements, that'll help. My car is already equipped with a MAF, so that shouldn't be a problem. I am planning to use a complete EG33 engine with the stock manifold/injectors/coil etc...Not sure if the ECU will work, so that is still one of my unanswered questions.
I think it's safe to say your Outback ECU would not work - an ECU designed to fire 4 injectors isn't going to work with 6 injectors. So you'll definitely need to find an SVX ECU, and I think you're wise to go with a newer one if possible.

Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
Also, what kind of rpm's is that engine turning on the highway at 70 w/ 4:11s?
I'm confused about what you're asking. If you're asking what does an SVX H-6 turn with the SVX auto tranny at 70mph, then I understand (and I don't know the answer ). If you're asking what would the SVX H-6 turn with your existing drivetrain, then the answer is.... exactly the same RPMs as your 2.5L H-4.

Quote:
Originally posted by sovereignmk1
And the OB has a 4.44 diff ratio.
Are you sure about that? I know (based on previous discussions on the board) that the Outback 5-speed has a different 5th gear than the other Legacys, but I thought they had the same final drive ratios (4.11 for 5-speed, 4.44 for 4EAT).

Pat Olsen
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Old 12-07-2002, 04:04 PM   #18
outback2.5HO
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Pat,

I know the stock Legacy ECU won't fire the H-6, but was curious if the early (92-94) SVX intake could be fired by a later (OBDII) SVX ECU? Basically, does the intake and its wiring require the same year ECU to run it? On most Subarus with four bangers, you need to use the same year intake as the ECU, wasn't sure if the case is the same with the SVX.

The 4:11's will turn too many rpms on the highway at 70 (about 3200) with the 6cyl. SVXs have 3:54s stock, but an Auto tranny is not in option. BTW, the gears in my 5 speed are 4:11s, as I am running an LSD out of a '00 RS with 4:11 gears. The autos do have 4:44s though, and a good overdrive to turn about 2700 rpms at 70. I wish that the Outback had a different 5th gear than other Legacies (taller), not sure where whoever posted got their info.. Right now, I have a 99 GT 5speed on my lot and it turns the same rpms on the highway as my OB, leading me to believe that everything about those trannies is the same.

At any rate, I think the 3:90 5 speed in my turbo Legacy will be donated to the cause, and help out the gas mileage and wear a bit with the H-6.

Thanks again for the help.
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Old 12-07-2002, 04:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
On most Subarus with four bangers, you need to use the same year intake as the ECU, wasn't sure if the case is the same with the SVX.
Sorry, I can't answer that one for ya. I don't know what would have changed as far as all the electronics and sensors go when they changed from OBD I to OBD II.

Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
The 4:11's will turn too many rpms on the highway at 70 (about 3200) with the 6cyl. SVXs have 3:54s stock, but an Auto tranny is not in option. BTW, the gears in my 5 speed are 4:11s, as I am running an LSD out of a '00 RS with 4:11 gears. The autos do have 4:44s though, and a good overdrive to turn about 2700 rpms at 70. I wish that the Outback had a different 5th gear than other Legacies (taller), not sure where whoever posted got their info.. Right now, I have a 99 GT 5speed on my lot and it turns the same rpms on the highway as my OB, leading me to believe that everything about those trannies is the same.
When I read about it here I went and verified it with my parts guy at the dealer in CT. There are actually three 5th gear part numbers, one for 2.5GT and L, and two for Outbacks (depending on the model year, and I don't remember what the break down was). I don't know what the ratios actually are for each part number, but I believe the GT is .780 and one Outback version is .870:1. There was one guy who posted that he put the Outback 5th gear into his RS and it was definitely different.

What size tires are you running on your Outback? It was pointed out to me that the Outback's 5th gear was most likely different because it has larger tires, and Subaru was probably trying to get the RPMs to match on the highway (as you've seen).

Pat
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Old 12-07-2002, 07:12 PM   #20
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225/60-r16s in the summer, 215/75-r15s in the winter. The car has a 2" lift
which accomadates the larger tires. Stock tires are 205/70-r15s, so the overall diameter is larger than a GTs 205/55-r16s. Very interesting how they all turn the same rpms on the highway...

It would seem like with a different 5th they would turn less than 3000rpms on the highway, Subaru engineering for you. There's plenty of power below 3000 rpms, the autos have plenty of poop at 2700rpms on the highway. Why are the manual cars geared so low? How about a 6 speed?
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Old 12-07-2002, 07:51 PM   #21
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I think the intake/ECU issue, as far as interchangability, has more to do with the MAP/MAS setups and OBDI/II setups.

Your RPM/MPH readings (if I'm understanding this correctly) are going to be the same regardless of tire size because the signal is derived from the drivetrain. Your ACTUAL MPH is likely different though. (not bashing, just a different point o' view)

I think the swap will work, once you get the right ECU and harness wired up to the H6. Physically fitting it shouldn't be too much trouble. I think I read somewhere that it's (EZ33) only 1" longer, no wider and weighs less than 50lbs more than a EJ25. Not sure about the EG33 though....

Jay Storm
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Old 12-07-2002, 08:43 PM   #22
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Storm,

Pretty sure that the SVX (EG33) is a MAF set up not MAP, which would be the same as the Outback. That shouldn't pose a problem as much as the wiring to make it fire...The EZ30 in the new Outback is a MAP set up.

Understand what you are saying about the MPH/RPM issue, the speed sensor signal would be the same regardless of the engine that drives the car.

Did you mean the EZ30 (3.0L) in the new Outback? Not bashing, just checking. Don't think I want to go that route for several reasons:

1.The dual timing chain on the 3.0, vs. the single belt on the 3.3.
2. MAP (3.0) vs. MAF set up (3.3).
3. Cost
4. Accessibility
5. Ease (or lack of ease) of maintenance. You need to pull +-100 bolts to access the dual timing chains on the 3.0
6. Lack of power. The 3.3 (230hp)will flat out womp on the 3.0 (212hp), butt dyno or real dyno.

Very nice web site BTW...
When that sweet RS gets retired from road duty, I'd like to recycle it into Rally duty...
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Old 12-08-2002, 11:06 AM   #23
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Default Yup, it's MAF

The EG33 does use a MAF sensor, NOT a MAP sensor.
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Old 12-08-2002, 11:26 AM   #24
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Yes we're on the same page. I was referring to the new Outback motor(just got the code fubbed up). That was the one I remember the dimensions of. I don't blame you for going the easier/less expensive route. So long as you use an ECU with the same setup, it should fire with the right sensors on the engine.

Thanks for the kudos on the site. I can't convine my partner to get the car dirty yet. When we run it's course on the pavement...it'll become some sort of rally rat. Until then, I beat up on RS's and WRX's with my lil' 1.8!
Quote:
Originally posted by outback2.5HO
Storm,

Pretty sure that the SVX (EG33) is a MAF set up not MAP, which would be the same as the Outback. That shouldn't pose a problem as much as the wiring to make it fire...The EZ30 in the new Outback is a MAP set up.

Understand what you are saying about the MPH/RPM issue, the speed sensor signal would be the same regardless of the engine that drives the car.

Did you mean the EZ30 (3.0L) in the new Outback? Not bashing, just checking. Don't think I want to go that route for several reasons:

1.The dual timing chain on the 3.0, vs. the single belt on the 3.3.
2. MAP (3.0) vs. MAF set up (3.3).
3. Cost
4. Accessibility
5. Ease (or lack of ease) of maintenance. You need to pull +-100 bolts to access the dual timing chains on the 3.0
6. Lack of power. The 3.3 (230hp)will flat out womp on the 3.0 (212hp), butt dyno or real dyno.

Very nice web site BTW...
When that sweet RS gets retired from road duty, I'd like to recycle it into Rally duty...
Please keep us updated...with pics!
Jay Storm
www.sourcemotorsports.com
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Old 12-08-2002, 05:29 PM   #25
outback2.5HO
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Heard through the grapevine that there is another guy that has pulled this swap off in an Outback, which motivates me more to follow through.

Trying to get the parts lined out on a set up from a '96 SVX complete with wiring and ECU.

Until the parts are stacked in the shop, the Outback is resting (for surgery) on a car trailer.

Keep you posted on how its going.

Thanks for the help.
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