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Old 12-03-2002, 01:20 AM   #1
Oldnslow
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Default New U.S. 2.5 liter STI rumor

I know the notion of a U.S. market 2.5 liter STI has been thoroughly debunked on this board, but there is an interesting thread on the STI website from a Canadian Subaru rally driver who claims to have "firm" information that the North American STI will have a new 2.5 liter motor with at least 275hp. There was also another rumor Subaru may be now be building a second US STI prototype(perhaps with this motor?). This could be good news for us as I have never understood why they would necessarily be wedded to the 2 liter for worldwide markets (the 2 liter is homologated by the JDM market alone). Good news unless for some reason they tried to get the 2 liter, with or without twin-scroll, STI certified and could not do it, and are now rushing to turbocharge a 2.5. that may not have STI internals or have been thoroughly tested, just to compete with the EVO. Well, just thought I'd toss this rumor out and see what folks think.
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Old 12-03-2002, 03:51 AM   #2
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Logic dictates that wont happen.
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Old 12-03-2002, 10:56 AM   #3
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Oldnslow:

I think you are reffering to this thread .

I think that this rumor has been debunked numerous times on both boards, but that is not to say that a 2.5 Turbo would be bad.

I think they will stick with a 2.0, personally. Less than 40 days remain till we all find out...

You could also do a search for the user Worm at my site. Worm has had the most credible information, I believe to date.

JJ
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Old 12-03-2002, 01:43 PM   #4
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Worm(is that a great name or what?) hasn't weighed in on this subject yet. Well, Worm is this Subaru rally car driver winding us up? I'm sure I'm just guilty of wishful thinking--can you imagine what a real 2.5 STI would be like, not to mention the tuning potential. Because of my Porsche background I have always been partial to 2.5 turbos--that 944 turbo was one of the all time great turbo road cars.
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Old 12-03-2002, 02:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oldnslow
Worm(is that a great name or what?) hasn't weighed in on this subject yet. Well, Worm is this Subaru rally car driver winding us up? I'm sure I'm just guilty of wishful thinking--can you imagine what a real 2.5 STI would be like, not to mention the tuning potential. Because of my Porsche background I have always been partial to 2.5 turbos--that 944 turbo was one of the all time great turbo road cars.
I think all the posts from Paul (Shirokuma) in Japan have suggested they def. have a 2.5 turbo test bed on shelf. As to whether it will make it into production, who knows? And most likely it'd go in a Legacy first.


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I have commented!

Look, it's possible that STi is lying to our faces, but I doubt it. They have directly admitted that they have a 2.5-litre *flat four* turbo "sitting on the shelf", and they also admit they have some other turbo configurations - for the flat fours - running around in test mules. However, as far as they are concerned, a flat 6 of any size running a turbo is about 2 years off, maybe a little less.

Yes, it's simple enough to slap a turbocharger on the H6 - it's another thing entirely to get it OBD-II compliant, to get it through several different international emission standards, to get good gas mileage, and make sure it holds together over 100,000miles of worst case user scenario.

Besides... From what I have recently experienced, their 2.5-litre turbo could produce more power than their current drivelines can take, and still be running less boost than the 2.0-litres, making emissions simpler to pass.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen"
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:39 PM   #6
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OldNSlow:
I am here to back you up. I have heard from "a good US source" that "spring 2003, SOA will announce a 2.5L TURBO STI Impreza." I have no reason to doubt the source of this info and have posted the same in other forums.
I would REALLY love it if this engine made it into the Legacy GT as I have a stake in that.
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:40 PM   #7
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I just want a manual H6...
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
I just want a manual H6...
me too. In fact, I just filled out a survey Subaru sent me and asked for one in the "additional comments" section!
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:46 PM   #9
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I went to a recent grand opening of a Subaru dealer here in Canada, to look at the FIA Group N rally car on display. The paper on the windshield claimed it was a 2.5L but the team website says 2.0L.

The reason the sti will be 2.0L is the WRC's rules
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Old 12-03-2002, 05:37 PM   #10
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The Japanese STi is the model homologated. Remember the 22B had a 2.2 turbo, but they still ran the 2.0 in the WR cars/Grp N etc.

Glenn
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Old 12-03-2002, 05:53 PM   #11
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I think Oldnslow is right on the money.
If, as Paul Hansen says, Subaru has a 2.5 liter 4-cylinder boxer motor "on the shelf," then it would be foolish NOT to put it in the US STi. Production of the new twin-scroll 2.0 liter turbo for the JDM will satisfy homologation requirements for WRC. In the U.S., a 2.5 liter would be able to make almost 300 hp even if its volumetric efficiency were no better than the current WRX --and meet emission standards too.
Maybe Subaru will put a 2.5 in the STi and maybe not, but it would be the simplest, and best solution to the crummy gas and strict emission standards which limit the hp potential of any 2.0 liter turbo here.
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:10 PM   #12
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The "paper on the windshield claimed it was a 2.5L motor" and yet this is wrong? So now the factory stickers are giving the wrong motor size? I'm actually beginning to convince myself we will get a 2.5 motor on the STI. The Aussie web site has a 240hp new WRX--their new STI isn't even on a website, but it sure won't be 260hp--who would buy such a car? Other than a few hard core enthusiasts, who would buy a 260-270hp 2-liter STI here, especially if the new WRX has 240hp. And how, given our emissions, can you get significantly more than 260hp out of a 2-liter in the U.S.(yes, the twin-scroll would help, but for the long term a bigger motor seems the obvious answer). This car has such an important image for Subaru I think they are going to make a big splash, put some distance between them and the EVO, and make their top of the line offering with a larger motor, for the premium they will charge for it over the WRX. How many other manufacturers come out with a top of the line model that has the same motor size as their base model?(Don't forget their is no "base" model for the EVO). This is America---if they expect to sell this car, they better consider the psyche of the American buyer, not Europeans used to driving 2-liters all the time. I think Subaru has this figured out. Or maybe I'm just delusional.....
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
So now the factory stickers are giving the wrong motor size?
Thanks for the assumption, but it wasn't not a factory sticker but something the dealership printed out for the Grand Opening. I merely pointed it out as a potential source of misinformation.

Feel free to check the specs of Pat Richards Car ( the one on dsiplay) yourself http://www.subarurallyteam.com/CarDe...mId=4&MenuId=4

When Subaru no longer participates in WRC, or when the WRC mandates 2.5L engines, then I'll beleive it!
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:58 PM   #14
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Sorry about the confusion on the sticker. However, I still do not understand why a 2 liter STI would be needed for the world markets, which have lousy gas and difficult emission standards. As Mr. Wallace points out, WRC requirements are satisfied by the JDM STI. It seems to me Subaru would want to try to give the rest of the world an STI that would perform about as well as the JDM car if they could. And they can. Just develope the 2.5 liter "on the shelf motor" with STI internals, including a closed deck.
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Old 12-03-2002, 07:42 PM   #15
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All this 2.5L STI rumor stuff is coming out of Canada. Latest is that CSI (Canadian Subaru) reps went to Japan and DROVE the Canadian/US STI. It had a 2.5L motor and was described as "Unbelievable" (which, of course, may also be the adjective appropriate for this thread). It was also said to be considerably more expensive than $32K US. Of course, it's all hearsay. Nobody is saying first hand they drove one!
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Old 12-03-2002, 09:10 PM   #16
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Makes sense to me. Why not increase displacement and turn down the boost? Better torque, more power (than we would otherwise get), and approximately the same weight. Seems almost like a no-brainer. I mean they've never used a USDM Impreza to homogolate for the WRC so why start now? I personally hope that the STi really is a 2.5L.
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Old 12-03-2002, 09:38 PM   #17
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Can you imagine the low-end GRUNT!?!?!
Granted I'm sure compression would be 8.0-1ish, but man! What a driver's car! Ooooooh!
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Old 12-03-2002, 10:06 PM   #18
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Like I stated above, I got my info from a USA source that is in the BEST position to know what SOA is bringing here.
I won't say the source or where that source works, but it is NOT a magazine/press release!
Don't believe it if you don't want to.
But I will be laughing when the news comes out as official.
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Old 12-04-2002, 01:48 AM   #19
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It's hard to say, for several reasons.

It's easy to just say that a 2.5-litre turbo would wallop the 2.0-litre turbo purely because of the difference in displacement. That line of thought drops out one important fact, that Subaru has spent a long time developing the 2.0-litre turbo motor for the WRX and the STi. This isn't seen just in the power output, which is rather good for a turbo 2.0, but in the length of the power band, the amount of torque available, the mileage it manages to get, and the emissions it passes through. Also add in reliability under all conditions.

If Subaru was to just slap the current STi turbo, intake and exhaust on the 2.5-litre, add in some forged pistons, do the heads, etc., it would be a fairly good engine. But I'd be willing to bet that the current 2.0-litre STi motor would actually make more power than that 2.5-litre, because far more money and time has been put into the 2.0-litre.

I do know that they have developed a 2.5-litre turbo flat four for the new Legacy, but they won't say that that will be the engine chosen for it. And that would be a light-pressure unit, suited for low-end grunt. The STi has always been about performance, though. A suitable comparison would be Honda's S2000. Honda obviously makes larger, higher output motors than the 2.0-litre in the S2000, but they felt that the 2.0-litre was the ideal blend of performance and weight for that particular application.

I do think that this may be a problem of perception. It does seem that most people in the states would be happier with a 2.5-litre, but that does seem to be because they think it would be faster in a straight line. Yet straight line driving is the antithesis of the STi.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Old 12-04-2002, 02:20 AM   #20
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Here's my input:

First off the 2.0 is a DOHC ... that gives it my vote over the 2.5 SOHC. Reason ... DOHC produce more HP per litre and handle the upper REVs better ... their's 2 cams, not one! ...

Also, GM did the same thing and the Mustang outsold the Camaro and TA ... why? The TA and Camaro have bigger engines ... 5.7 vs the Ford 4.6 ... f-bodies produce more HP and better specs (1 second faster in the 1/4 mile) ... but the Mustang out sells the F-body? Why? For start, the Mustang is just a couple grand cheaper ... Still goes fast enough and has MORE stuff to put on the car. The EVO does not have the aftermarket as the WRX has in the US, and the WRX is cheaper than the EVO, so I bet you will see the WRX beat out the EVo as if you want more, get an STI. The EVO is not my style nor choice.

That 2.5 STI ...great idea but it will cost just a little more, than the EVo, so then the EVO would outsell it. US people generally are slow ass drivers... hell they aren't drivers, they are commutors... well that's my comparison and I seriously doubt a 2.5 STI ... I don't know 4 sure, but based on past US car sale history, it would not make sense to do a 2.5 STI ... It would be more hP, but that doesn't always work here in the states.

Just another point of view to ponder...

Layt
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Old 12-04-2002, 02:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
The Japanese STi is the model homologated. Remember the 22B had a 2.2 turbo, but they still ran the 2.0 in the WR cars/Grp N etc.

Glenn
The 22b was also an EXTREMELY limited production run and also VERY expensive. And I believe it went through a seperate factory after it was built...
Quote:
Originally posted by Oldnslow
This is America---if they expect to sell this car, they better consider the psyche of the American buyer, not Europeans used to driving 2-liters all the time. I think Subaru has this figured out. Or maybe I'm just delusional.....
Well, despite the stupid American Idea, WRX sales exceded initial estimates in American by 300%... Your point is not valid.
Quote:
Originally posted by WS6toWRX
Here's my input:

First off the 2.0 is a DOHC ... that gives it my vote over the 2.5 SOHC. Reason ... DOHC produce more HP per litre and handle the upper REVs better ... their's 2 cams, not one! ...
Note: DOHC EJ25's are built outside of the US, and they even have Variable Valve Timing.

My problem is with all the problems that EJ25's have when being turbo'ed... It would cost alot in terms of R&D money to fix it all to work semi-reliably. And I think most of that money went towards the WRX, Forester, and Legacy redesigns
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Old 12-04-2002, 04:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
The Aussie web site has a 240hp new WRX--their new STI isn't even on a website, but it sure won't be 260hp--who would buy such a car?
The only reason the new STI is not on the website is that it is not released here yet. Only the the new WRX and the lower Impreza range is. The MY03 STI will be released in March or April in 2003, and final Aussie specs won't be available until close to that time.

Also... the new Aussie WRX has 168 kW (~225hp), which is up from 160kW (~215 hp). Nowhere there does it say that we get a 240hp WRX. It is fair to assume that the MY03 STI will have a similar increase in power, so it will probably have 200 kW or more, up from 195kW.
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Old 12-04-2002, 09:31 AM   #23
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I think it would be best to keep developing the 2.0L for the WRX and STi, making it a high reving turbo car, just like it is now. Put the 2.5L turbo in the Legacy GT and use the higher low end torque to offset the weight increase. The Horsepower doesn't even have to get much higher, just shift the torque peak down and take advantage of the extra displacement. give the Legacy GT 280 lb/ft at 2500rpm and 280hp at 6000rpm, the STi 280 lb/ft at 4000rpm and 300hp at 8000rpm. Both available with manual, obviously.

This would give Subaru two extremely fun cars, one targeting lightweight compact performance, and one slightly larger trading some of the handling and turbo lag for torque and comfort. Both would have many buyers. Kind of an M3/M5 arrangement, (with both at half the price)
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Old 12-04-2002, 11:52 AM   #24
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It would make some sense to use a 2.5 litre. As emissions tighten car makers are looking to displacement to still provide the power and torque that 'murican buyers want. Nissan across the board increased the displacement of the their engines to cope with lamer and lamer cam profiles (and lower rev limits) required to meet emissions (and other feel good politics) without going crazy with 3 cats. Now you have 3.5 litres running around in Altimas(!) when that was considered an "exotic" size for imports. I'm not complaining because we get a better platform for even more power. I don't think any respectable hotrod will be under 300hp in 5 years.
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Old 12-04-2002, 12:23 PM   #25
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Personally, I'd rather see the 2.0L motor in the WRX. It seems it can comfortably produce 300hp, (Canadian Open class WRXs produce upwards of 400hp with out the exotic technology of WRC cars ).

New technologies like direct injection will continue the trend of more power with better fuel economy and lower emissions I believe. Besides a 2.0L motor has less internal weight to overcome and less weight to toss around.

But that's just my opinion.
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