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Old 12-06-2002, 08:21 PM   #1
wcbjr
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Question Car idles rough and drives rough as well

All of a sudden the car started to idle and ride rough. Yes, all of a sudden. This happens at all rpm's and loads.

I have lost a good 25% power and about 30% fuel economy. It's not bad fuel as I have refilled the tank a few times cause the gas milage is so bad. I tried new plugs and that doesn't help. I've tried my coil pack and wires on another car and they work fine. I've tested the compression and all of the cylinders are in between 175 and 190. I've plugged in the stock ecu and that didn't fix the problem. I've also hooked up a node tester to the injector harnesses to make sure that they are not receiving a constant signal from the computer keeping them open.

The only thing I can think of is my timing is off or an injector is getting stuck open. I'm not burning any oil and I'm not hearing any strange noises.

Any ideas? Timing off, broken piston?

4 lbs of boost, 93 octane with no knocking or det. reported on the Link, btw
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Old 12-06-2002, 08:23 PM   #2
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What type of fuel pressure regulation are you using?
Is the Link showing that you are also running very rich?
Are all your voltages within spec from your sensors?

other than your current problem... how's the link? PM me.
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Old 12-06-2002, 08:25 PM   #3
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What do your plugs look like? Did you check the wires from the ECU to the ignitor? Plug wires?
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Old 12-06-2002, 08:31 PM   #4
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ImprezaRSX - FPR is an SX Performance that came from the Vishnu rail kit. The Link says I am running real rich, so rich the O2 reading doesn't work very well anymore.

Darshu - All the plugs are fine, both sets I tried.


I forgot to add that cylinder 1, where the EGT probe is, now measures 200 degrees less than normal, like 1200 instead of 1400.
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Old 12-06-2002, 08:40 PM   #5
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EGT's are lower because you are rich.
Rich conditions like this are usually two things:
High fuel pressure- check it, maybe something failed
Bad O2 Sensor.
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:10 PM   #6
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I know I am rich, hence the lowered gas mileage and erratic O2 readings. Fuel pressure is solid and does not taper off when the car is shut off, so I don't think an injector is getting stuck open. If it was, then the fuel would be dumped into the cylinder and the fuel pressure would go down. Even if the O2 malfunctioned, I have lambda tuning turned off on the Link. I basically don't even use the O2 sensors cause they suck anyways.
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:11 PM   #7
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Ok, let me ask this. What does happen when a timing belt is off?
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:21 PM   #8
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I might have a simular problem.

BTW: what happens when the O2 sensors go bad?
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:27 PM   #9
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So what you are saying is that you are open loop all the time like a carburetor.
That doesn't sound very efficient to me, but if it works.
Are you running a RRFPR?
IF so what are you running for pressure at idle?

A timing belt would hurt your idle quality but I can't see how it would make you rich... unless it was REALLY far off. Then I don't think it would even start.

Have you tried running with Lamda tuning on?

You say you checked spark.
You say the injectors aren't stuck open and fuel pressure is fine.
Last element is air. Did you suck a sock into your intake?

It really sounds like too much darn fuel. You said you ran BOTH the stock ECU and the Link, right? So it must be something that isn't affected by the ECU. Like a broken MAP sensor, or high fuel pressure.
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stranger
I might have a simular problem.

BTW: what happens when the O2 sensors go bad?
This:
Quote:
All of a sudden the car started to idle and ride rough. Yes, all of a sudden. This happens at all rpm's and loads.

I have lost a good 25% power and about 30% fuel economy. It's not bad fuel as I have refilled the tank a few times cause the gas milage is so bad. I tried new plugs and that doesn't help. I've tried my coil pack and wires on another car and they work fine. I've tested the compression and all of the cylinders are in between 175 and 190. I've plugged in the stock ecu and that didn't fix the problem.

Text book O2 sensor.

Depends on the failure. Sometimes they run like crap on the low and mid, but at WOT they run alright because you hit open loop up top.
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:38 PM   #11
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ImprezaRSX - I think you're missing that the Link does not use O2 sensors to adjust fuel. It actually doesn't use them at all when lambda tuning isn't being used. Also, it isn't a bad MAP sensor unless both the stock MAP sensor and the Link MAP sensor went bad at the same time. Fuel pressure has been constant 40psi at all times, rising at a rate of 1:1.
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:43 PM   #12
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No I didn't miss that.
I was just telling the other dude that this SOUNDS like the classic O2. However, your situation must be different.

I did forget that the Link has it's own map sensor, however. Did it come unplugged? <--- that would cause you to be rich until you started to boost, then it could go lean.

Sorry that I'm not more help.
Do you have an A/F gauge? If so, what's it hooked up to?
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Old 12-06-2002, 10:06 PM   #13
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well this happened to me right after my install with my EJ22T block, fuel pump, larger injectors and new turbo... i always thought it was the larger injectors... (RC 440) but on my path of finding this problem... nothing... (i get 150 miles per tank... thats crazy...)

i changed the O2 twice... nope
changed my stock injectors back in ... nope
spark plugs tried every kind even iridium ... nope
igition wires ... nope
do a compression test every month... nope
changed turbo ... nope
intercooler ... nope
all piping... nope

one thing i havn't touched since the rebuild way way back in 2000... the fuel pump... you should try it... i'm just too lazy... maybe something in the fuel pump...
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Old 12-06-2002, 10:17 PM   #14
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Well, something that's been known to happen on cars with a vacuum line to the map like the link.... Some water condenses and freezes in the line, causeing a total or partial blockage. This could screw a lot up and would appear suddenly. Do your map readings react quickly and seem right?
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Old 12-06-2002, 10:24 PM   #15
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Actually it sounds like a vacuum leak. Did you check all your vacuum lines? Are you venting your BOV to atmosphere? If so, do you think it could be leaking? Are your readings from your MAP sensor normal? Just throwing more questions out there....
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Old 12-07-2002, 03:36 PM   #16
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Problem solved. I don't know exactly how, but the plugs were fowling. There's a nice carbon streak running down the side of a plug. It wasn't there yesterday, but it's very evident today. I did change out the plugs but maybe they weren't getting seated correctly. I feel that this is part of a bigger problem. I'll have to be on the lookout to make sure it doesn't keep happening.
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Old 12-07-2002, 04:53 PM   #17
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still running rich?
Maybe you should consider running in closed loop. Subarus run with a wideband O2 sensor for a reason. They have great response and high resolution. A properly tuned engine would have less carbon in the cylinders too. Assuming that the carbon is from gas and not oil.

Are you running an oil catch can? These are always a good idea on turbocharged motors.
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Old 12-08-2002, 01:56 PM   #18
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It happened again, sigh. It was/is the #3 plug fowling up.

This morning I was going to leave but the car wouldn't start. I loaded up the laptop and noticed that the ignition type was set to single coil. This has happened before in the past and for the life of me I can't figure out how it gets set to that. I set it back to dual and the car started and idled fine. I drove about 150 feet and the car starting missing again, idling and driving very rough. I came back home and check the #3 plug and it is completely soaked with fuel. I am going to go try another plug and see what happens.

How in the world is this happening. Something wrong with the Link?
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Old 12-08-2002, 02:15 PM   #19
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Put in a new plug and and it fouled in about 15 seconds. An injector is getting stuck open or receiving a constant signal from the Link is my only guess.
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Old 12-08-2002, 02:48 PM   #20
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Are you sure your plug wire on cyl 3 isn't bad? Did you measure the resistance of your injectors?
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Old 12-08-2002, 03:14 PM   #21
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Swap spark plug wires and see if it changes. That's an easy troubleshooting tool. If it follows the plug wire then there's your problem. If it stays on number three, check your injector.
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Old 12-08-2002, 08:46 PM   #22
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Okay, I tried a friend's plug wires, again. #3 plug wire is the problem, but only when it's humid outside. The whole thing started when it was really cold and wet a few days ago. The plug wire couldn't give enough juice to the plug and the plug then got carbon deposits all over it from the fuel not being burnt. So, when the weather cleared up and I changed the plug everything worked. Today is is rainy here so the problem arose again.

Hopefully this will also clear up the hesitation I couldn't tune out at WOT in all gears. If so, I'll finally hit my 230whp mark I have been shooting for.
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Old 12-08-2002, 10:14 PM   #23
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Congrats!
You going to get some nice Magnecore wires?
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Old 12-08-2002, 10:17 PM   #24
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I found some Magnecor KV85 wires at Alamo Motorsports for 80 bucks. Is that a good deal?
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Old 12-09-2002, 04:52 AM   #25
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hell yes!
I paid almost 125 for mine a year ago!
Buy them direct from magnecore with a month wait for 90 bucks
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