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Old 12-16-2002, 02:26 AM   #1
impreza2002
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Default what is the purpose of steele brake line???

Hi,
I want to know will I get better braking when I have the "steele brake line"? Which will provide better braking, the "steele brake line" or a racing "brake pads"? Thanks
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Old 12-16-2002, 02:38 AM   #2
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its less likely to flex or collapse under pressure. this keeps the brake pressure consistant and where it is supposed to be.
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Old 12-16-2002, 02:39 AM   #3
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stainless steel braided lines with good brake pads will make a noticable increase in braking.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:04 AM   #4
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Stainless Steel (SS) Braided Brake lines: give your brake pedal a firm and consistent *feel* over repeated hard braking. This modification will not affect your braking distance. (notice I said feel) The idea is the SS braid will not flex like the oem rubber line under pressure and heat from repeated braking

Most aftermarket brake pads will give you better stop distance (shorter)... But you'd have to research that for specific details.

Race Brake Pads: works better under higher operating temperatures, since you're racing (repeated hard stops over long periods of time). This is usually at the expense of poor low temperature braking (ie: driving around town, on the highway) where the pad is cold.

If you want shorter stopping distance, get larger rotors... But research and think about what this means to your calipers and your wheels before plunging...
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:27 AM   #5
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Hi,
I dont want to spend that much money for upgrade my brake! So I dont think I will get the rotor change. For now I am looking forward for a new brake pads. Can anyone suggest me a good brake pads, and should I get the "high performance- street brake pads" or the "race brake pad"? Thanks a lot!
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:51 AM   #6
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If you're not "racing" don't get "race brake pads"

seriously, DO NOT get brake pads that are meant for high temp. applications (like racing) for driving around normally. Your stopping distances will be longer, and it will be VERY dangerous. Brakes are not something to mess around with, and race pads are not like some badge you can put on your car to impress people with. Get an uprated street pad, you will enjoy the increase in brake performance.

mark
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by spidey02wrx
If you're not "racing" don't get "race brake pads"

seriously, DO NOT get brake pads that are meant for high temp. applications (like racing) for driving around normally. Your stopping distances will be longer, and it will be VERY dangerous. Brakes are not something to mess around with, and race pads are not like some badge you can put on your car to impress people with. Get an uprated street pad, you will enjoy the increase in brake performance.

mark
just to reinforce, the difference between race and street are their operating temps. everyone's probably seen nascar dudes swerving around on the pace lap, they're warming up their tires to get to their operating temperature faster. if you can't keep up the temperature, race pads will definately be worse. so stick with street pads like axxis ultimates, hawk hps, there are a bunch more.
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:43 AM   #8
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Like what people have said thousands of times on this board, if you want to stop fast on the street, get better tires.

I do track days with dedicated race pads. But what do I use on the street/highway? OEM Subaru pads. They stop great, and I never thought "Oh, I need better brake pads", even though I drive pretty fast and wild on the freeway.

-Ray
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Old 12-17-2002, 03:37 PM   #9
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I've heard the SS Brake line with stock calipers does nothing, since there's a lot of flex in the stock caliper alone.
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Old 12-17-2002, 08:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtb_dude
I've heard the SS Brake line with stock calipers does nothing, since there's a lot of flex in the stock caliper alone.
How exactly do you get cast iron to flex ?


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Old 12-17-2002, 09:57 PM   #11
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With the exception of that stock caliper flex comment, the advice above is all good.

I got the SS brake lines for 2 reasons. 1. I wanted a firmer pedal feel. It makes it easier to heel-toe downshift. My brake pedal now firms high enough to allow me to cover both the brake and gas with one foot. 2. I (used to) rallycross alot and I wanted a little protection for my brake lines. I've had branches and rocks and crap get stuck up in my wheel wells and I didn't want to cut a brake line.

I also have a mild race pad on my stock brakes. I did this because I felt that the stock pads were _too_ grabby. I wanted a more linear feel to my brakes. On the stock pads, as soon as you touch the brakes, you get immediate stopping power. It can be a little too much if you just wanted to shift the weight of the car or slow down a little. They can be a little exciting the first time you hit them on a cold morning if you forget. I usually drag them a little on the way out of the subdivision.

You might look into EBC Greenstuff pads. I have no experience with them, but if their advertising is to be believed they're a good autocrossing pad and don't require any warm up.

To each his own, your milage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer then they appear.

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Old 12-18-2002, 10:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by North Ursalia


How exactly do you get cast iron to flex ?

Take a cast iron "I" beam, place a penny in the middle and pull out your handy dandy laser measuring device and notice it flexed! The stock calipers are push type calipers, not clamp type. Which means that as you apply braking force, the caliper is literally trying to pry it self apart, with the rotor caught in the crossroads. Now look at a Boxter (not S) brake caliper and look how HUGE it is compared to ours. It is not cast but a billet machined piece of steel. (Casting is the weakest forming method, forging and machining are far better.) This is Porsches normal non high performance caliper. Finally, go outside, take off a front wheel, have your friend pump the brakes with the car running and stare at the caliper. It flexes, and you didn't even have to take my word on it.

Edited: For maximum nicety.

Last edited by mtb_dude; 12-19-2002 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 12-18-2002, 10:52 AM   #13
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sarcasm of the above aside, the reason the stock calipers flex(mostly) is because of machining tolerances... Once some presure is applied, the slop gets taken up, and it's pretty solid after that... SS lines do make a difference
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Old 12-18-2002, 11:22 AM   #14
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Default Any thing will...

Any thing will flex if enough force is used.


I'm sure that our stock caliper is not the best, but I would consider that each component of the system adds flex.

On Bicycle Calipers it is easy to see the flex, hard to see the compression in the cable casing. You will definately notice if a better (less compressible) casing is used.

I think the same rule would apply in this case, IE: even though the caliper will still flex the casing of the hose will expand less w/ the SS so if you would notice the difference in calipers then you would definately notice the difference in the SS vs. rubber w/ internal steel lines.


(Really its a consideration of scale, I could design Kevlar/rubber brake lines that shouldn't expand at the pressures involved. the question becomes: Would it be worth it? Can you tell the difference?)

nick

PS: Casting is not always the weakest forming method.
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Old 12-18-2002, 11:28 AM   #15
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Default

BTW, that was meant to be light sarcasm, and not attacking sarcasm. Sorry if that came across that way. But you have to realize a lot of the information on this board (escpecially lately) is being spun by vendors, not that it's entirely a bad thing. Me and two friends of mine are mechanical engineers and it's hard to listen to quasi-engineering sometimes. But we've evaluated SS brake lines and saw the caliper flexes even more and we've found a 5-10% increase in firmness at most. Not worth the time and money, and yes we bleeded them correctly. Get better calipers first, or try Greenstuffs for the cheapo solution that will actually make a difference.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to save people money.
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Old 12-18-2002, 07:12 PM   #16
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[sarcasm mode on]

Quote:
and yes we bleeded them correctly
that would be "bled"..... bleeded is not a word

[sarcasm mode off]

US Rallyists like them for the protection factor mainly...
Reduces the chance of a rock piercing your lines...
been known to happen


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Old 12-18-2002, 11:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtb_dude BTW, that was meant to be light sarcasm, and not attacking sarcasm. Sorry if that came across that way. But you have to realize a lot of the information on this board (escpecially lately) is being spun by vendors, not that it's entirely a bad thing. Me and two friends of mine are mechanical engineers and it's hard to listen to quasi-engineering sometimes. But we've evaluated SS brake lines and saw the caliper flexes even more and we've found a 5-10% increase in firmness at most. Not worth the time and money, and yes we bleeded them correctly. Get better calipers first, or try Greenstuffs for the cheapo solution that will actually make a difference.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to save people money.
5-10% of what? from what? to what? How did you messure firmness?
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Old 12-19-2002, 12:15 AM   #18
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SS lines with stock caliper is throwing money away.
That depends on what you're looking for. Will they reduce braking distance, obviously not. Personaly, my main purpose was for off road protection. However, I was pleasantly suprised at how much of a difference the SS lines made in pedal feel. (Speaking purely subjectively, from personal experience - no engineering analysis performed.) I suppose I could be equally suprised at how much difference higher quality calipers would make. I don't know. I don't have them.

BTW: There are (or at least used to be) quite a few engineers on the board (like, myself for instance). Be sure you're specific about what is opinion, theory, and empirical data.

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Old 12-19-2002, 07:46 AM   #19
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Foot dyno, Angus. Foot dyno.
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtb_dude
BTW, that was meant to be light sarcasm, and not attacking sarcasm. ... Not worth the time and money, and yes we bleeded them correctly. Get better calipers first, or try Greenstuffs for the cheapo solution that will actually make a difference.

I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to save people money.
Oh, I know it was sarcasm, I didn't want you to think I was seriously defending the penny on the i-beam thing... :-)
also, most stainless lines aren't any more expensive than a good set of pads and they also won't stop caliper flex....
calipers will be WAY more expensive, altho the best solution combined w/ better brake lines, obviously...
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:09 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angus

5-10% of what? from what? to what? How did you messure firmness?
Angus:
sed -e ' s/5-10%/barely perceptible/g'
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrbell

most stainless lines aren't any more expensive than a good set of pads and they also won't stop caliper flex....
You're totally right. However the increase coefficient of dynamic friction on the pad will need less force for an equivalent braking torque, effectively eliminating the flex effect, which is a big reason (although certainly not the only reason) that our brakes feel mushy. But the pads will only reduce braking distance, not change feel.
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red-Imp


Will they reduce braking distance, obviously not.

...

BTW: There are (or at least used to be) quite a few engineers on the board (like, myself for instance). Be sure you're specific about what is opinion, theory, and empirical data.

And if they don't reduce braking distance, would you not agree that there is the same amount of flex in the system? Afterall, you're moving the brake pedal the same distance, the hoses are no longer giving, and there is no more normal force on the rotor than there was before. Think about it.

As for the large amount of engineers on this board, I'm well aware, and quite used to peer review. (ie thick skin)
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subie Gal

US Rallyists like them for the protection factor mainly...
Reduces the chance of a rock piercing your lines...
been known to happen
That's the first person I've seen to come up with a good reason to use them - offroad.
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:54 AM   #25
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Lightbulb

Quote:
you're moving the brake pedal the same distance,
No, actually, I'm not. That's what I was trying to say above:

Quote:
My brake pedal now firms high enough to allow me to cover both the brake and gas with one foot.
Sorry, that might not have been very clear. The pedal firms up with noticably less travel. It makes it easier for people with less then size 11's to put one side of the foot on the brake and one side on the gas. It's not the reason I got them, just a happy side effect. (I had actually put on aluminum pedals and offset the brake to be closer to the gas to help heel-toe downshifting, but I was a bit dissapointed until I put the brake lines on. It just made it easier for me and it might be a perfectly valid reason for someone to spend $100 on silly SS brake lines.)

The actual reason I got them:
Quote:
I (used to) rallycross alot and I wanted a little protection for my brake lines. I've had branches and rocks and crap get stuck up in my wheel wells and I didn't want to cut a brake line.
Off road! Which, it appears, I mentioned first.



(Sheesh, nobody listens around here until Subie Gal says it.)

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