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Old 12-16-2002, 05:31 PM   #1
quickgtp
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Question Once your car is pushing what to do?

I did my first auto-x this weekend. It was wet in the morning when I ran and there was one hard right that I never got correct. Every time I went thru it I would brake and then turn and everytime I would push all the way to the cones. I never hit them but I would have to shift back to first because I was going so slow by the time I got the car to turn. Now I know what to do to avoid this "slow down dumb a$$" was one piece of advice. Once the car is pushing with wheels turned what is the best way to get the car to rotate.

-Go back to center and try again?
-Tap the brakes in the hopes the car might turn?
-Grab ankles your done?

Thanks for any help
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Old 12-16-2002, 05:51 PM   #2
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As soon as your car starts to push, lift and ease the degree of turn on the steering wheel. (thus if you were turning right too sharply, turn back left a tad). This should get you more adhesion on the front and then try turning again at the slower speed. Then next time, use a slower entry speed.
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Old 12-16-2002, 06:38 PM   #3
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Well depending on the level of understeer you could either steer a little less, tap the brakes a bit, or a bit of both of those. What I try to do is tap the brakes with the left foor while gassing still with the right so you maintain turbo spool.

You could also use the Eric K. patended method.
"If it understeers, give it gas. If it oversteers, give it gas"

-Tom
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Old 12-16-2002, 07:02 PM   #4
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as david smith here in houston managed to convince me, when that starts happening, steer LESS, and youll turn more. youll also want to easy off on the gas if you are on it


its counterintuitive but if you force yourself to try you may be surprised.

and next time through the corner, enter it slower =)
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Old 12-16-2002, 07:09 PM   #5
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Thanks. I think I need to steer less as there was no rotation just wheels turned going straight. I tried the tap brakes and that helped a lot on the more open turns.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:42 PM   #6
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Remember , in slow out fast.

Sounds like your not braking enough for the corners. Then it sounds like you getting on the gas before the apex of the corner.

If you spool the turbo before the apex, you will understeer because the rear end with it's limited slip will have far more traction than the front. Only thing to do is back off the throttle.

I don't know your level of experiance with autocrossing, but for now don't worry about tapping the brakes in the middle of the corners, or any other fancy manuvers. The WRX demands that you be as smooth as possible.

If you can get to the point where your driving so smoothly that you think your driving slow, you probably just set your fastest time of the day.
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:00 PM   #7
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E-BRAKE!

Don
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:50 PM   #8
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cut inside, run over and flatten the inside cone so it doesnt fall over
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Old 12-17-2002, 02:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gspot
cut inside, run over and flatten the inside cone so it doesnt fall over
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Old 12-17-2002, 03:36 AM   #10
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In some case, I've found I can give a quick lift or jab on the brakes which will push enough weight onto the front wheels to make them bite in and turn the car. Coupled with a sharp bit of throttle, this has on occasion had the effect of tugging the nose into the corner. It's a bit conditional though and you have to learn how to feel when it will work. I can't explain it.
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Old 12-17-2002, 04:00 AM   #11
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Turn earlier.

A hard right in the rain I would just go in brake a little to kill speed, and turn right HARD and get the rear end out, straighten the wheel and gun it.

I dont know if it will work with an overweight WRX without enough of a suspension or swaybar though...
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Old 12-17-2002, 11:47 AM   #12
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ChrisW said it best.

If you do find yourself overcooking a turn just unwind the steering wheel a bit as you roll off the gas, when you feel you are going in the direction you intended, jam your right foot through the floor.
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Old 12-17-2002, 07:07 PM   #13
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I try to do most of my braking while the car is in a straight line, then use my left foot a little to help the car rotate a bit when it starts to push.

I've ridden with many people who try to brake too late, then end up overcooking the turn with the ABS kicking in... I'm not saying that braking late is always bad (some people are better than others) but it's hard to do in a WRX if you aren't smooth enough.

Like ChrisW said, the WRX rewards the smooth driver.

Corey #89
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Old 12-17-2002, 07:59 PM   #14
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Unwinding the wheel when the car doesn't want to turn was totally counterintuitive to me initially. Rationally it made sense, but my hands just wanted to turn the wheel more when the car didn't turn enough. Driving schools can be a big help "fixing" things like this, it's hard to change your instincts driving three runs every couple of weeks. I started getting the concept while taking Evolution school early this year. The main motivation for doing it right was probably to stop Mike Johnson from screaming at me from the passenger seat!

It has almost become second nature by now, just gently lift off the throttle, and unwind the wheel, until you feel the front tires catching grip. Of course there are limits to everything, if you entered the corner way too fast you're still going to mow down a row of cones.
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Old 12-18-2002, 08:23 AM   #15
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I do this too (on the road ), I find in slow corners like autoX ones the front just washes out. Best thing to do is brake harder to get the nose down and weight over the front wheels, then you can get to turn properly. I sometimes find the car will understeer, then oversteer nicely once the fronts get a grip. Any acceleration will lift the nose and you'll understeer.
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Old 12-18-2002, 11:18 AM   #16
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Old 12-18-2002, 12:52 PM   #17
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its really simple brake more or change your steering geometry

i have found this is much harder with the WRX vs the RS .. the RS would pull right out no matter how slow (torque=good)

my car won't shift back in to first (YAY SOA ) so i push in the clutch some and rev .. then let er out ... it still bogs
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Old 12-18-2002, 03:12 PM   #18
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i'm fairly new to autoxing... and i just finished my first full season.

it seemed like i wasn't carrying any speed around the corner and if i was i was plowing like mad.

i don't know if they have 'novice' walk-throughs in your regioin but that really helps... gives you a good perspective from someone who has done it before... what they would do on the different turns throughout the course.

oh- and another i'll do was even on little sweepers i'll be gassing it up while turning -- which i've been told, and have experienced that wasn't the smartest thing to do.

i found that everytime i plowed... it was because i got on the brakes too late... i actually found out that if i brake early enough it actually helps the car turn (i think its because of the transfer of weight to the front tires that helps that).

when i did plow the only thing i could do was to slow down... gassing it makes it worse...

its probably been said 20 billion times but if you go in slow... and accelerate out of the corners you'll avoid having your car push all together. its definately easier than done specially trying to figure out when to brake... where to point the car...

seat time they say... i guess i'll just have to ride and learn.

my .02

enjoy!
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Old 12-19-2002, 03:41 AM   #19
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www.turnfast.com

good driving info & tips...
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Old 12-19-2002, 04:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Sounds like your not braking enough for the corners. Then it sounds like you getting on the gas before the apex of the corner.
Yup. As the saying goes, newbies don't slow enough on the slow parts and don't go fast enough on the fast parts.
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Old 12-21-2002, 02:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
i found that everytime i plowed... it was because i got on the brakes too late... i actually found out that if i brake early enough it actually helps the car turn (i think its because of the transfer of weight to the front tires that helps that).
Now there's someone who was paying attention. Going fast in slow corners only makes you slower. The best way to correct understeer is to avoid it.

I've only been autocrossing for a couple of years, so I'm by no means an expert. However, it seems to me that how you avoid understeer depends on why you're doing it. Counter-steering will generally only help you out of power-on understeer. If you're understeering under braking you've used up all your traction. You're going to have to widen your turn.

Here's a theory I read in a road racing book: Each tire only has so much traction. You can use that traction for accelerating, decelerating or turning. So, if you've already used 100% of the traction in the front wheels for braking, there's none left for turning. (Thus, you push.) Think about that as you enter the turn. Only use 100% of the traction to decelerate before the turn. As you start to turn, you have to ease off the brake so that you have traction available to turn the car. As you start to accelerate, you have to turn the car less so that you have traction available to accelerate. You also loose front traction as the weight shifts to the rear (as explained below).

As you gain skill, you can play tricks to increase the amount of traction in a given wheel by increasing the weight on that wheel. (The horizontal force from friction is proportional to the perpendicular (vertical) force from the weight on the wheel.) You can also decrease the amount of traction in a wheel by decreasing the weight on it. So, when you're braking, the car's weight shifts to the front wheels and they have an increased traction limit. If you can learn to balance the brake and the steering, you can begin the turn while weight of the car's on the front wheels and have more traction to work with.

Of course, all that theory is much easier said then done. You have to get a feel for it and that takes practice, practice, practice. Or as someone said above, "seat time, seat time, seat time."

And always remember, advice is a gift to the giver. It's usually only worth what you pay for it.

-Bud
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