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Old 12-19-2002, 03:36 AM   #1
interiot
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Default Getting the WRX to oversteer

I know this has most people stumped, but are there any good tips for making the WRX oversteer when you need it to? I'm specifically talking about during rallycross, though autocrossing and such probably applies too. There's the scandinavian flick and such, but are there some easier techniques for newbies?

This guy says that you shouldn't force a car to oversteer via suspension tuning. Does anybody know why he suggests that?

And finally, any suggestions on where to practice this? Autocrossing allow you to be in the seat a total of 10 minutes every couple weeks, and messing around on public roads can get expensive. Perhaps there's a generous soul in northern illinois who owns a lot of land and a motor-grader?
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Last edited by interiot; 12-19-2002 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 12-19-2002, 05:55 AM   #2
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A quik stab at the brakes while turning will generaly kick out the rear on loose surfaces. You can push in the clutch and grab some E-brake. You can down shift upbruptly while turning the wheel. There is the less dramatic version of the flick where you just steer a little opposite and then snap it into the turn.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:09 AM   #3
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Playing with tire pressure can help too. I recnetly ran my first session of the day with my right rear tire a few pounds less than my left rear (and about 4-5 pounds less then the fronts) and the car was neutral in right turns, but absolutely BRUTAL with oversteer in left handers.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:46 AM   #4
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Pitch the rear entering the corner.
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:51 AM   #5
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Are you asking to change the behaviour of the car or just how to "hang the tail out"?

Even with a stock 2.5 RS you can get plenty sideways on any surface (don't try this on the road) with the flick.

When approaching the corner, turn AWAY sharply from the corner and lift, then turn back in. You have to upset the balance of the car, and then as the tail comes out get on the gas and power through.

Even with an oversteering RWD car you will push on gravel because the front tires don't have much grip --- assuming you try and drive like you're on a racetrack.

Try attending a 1 day rally school, it is pretty quick to learn the technique and cheaper than trying to change the behaviour of your car.

Certainly for autocross you can tune in less understeer (smaller front bar, higher tire pressure at front, softer shock settings at front, more toe out at rear) but for gravel/dirt/rallycross none of this is really needed. You can get just as sideways in a stock car by learning the flick.

Glenn
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:31 AM   #6
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Or you can buy a TypeRA, it's easy to slide those under power.

You still have to get the fronts gripping on turnin by loading up the front tyres though.

If you watch the full lap one in particular, you can see the nose dip on corner entry as i load the fronts to increase the grip, then its a case of bringing more power in to get the backend out. using trail braking can help this too, its all about weight transfer at the end of the day, how much input you need to make depends on what surface and conditions you are driving in, not to mention what transmition systems you have.

have a laugh at these anyway, i am just messing about.

entering the pits in style

a full lap

sideways compilation
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:41 AM   #7
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As I understand it, the flick involves executing several different techniques that most people aren't used to, in rapid succession, and is usually covered as one of the last things in rally school. So I'm guessing that without a lot of quality time alone with a dirt lot, or the rally school idea, I probably won't figure that one out.

How much are decent rally schools? Are there any in the midwest? I keep running across the Team O'Neil site... are they all >$1500?

I'm a somewhat intelligent guy and usually enjoy working things out for myself, especially when it ends up saving me that much money but I may have to give in on this one unless I can find a way to practice this without having another accident...
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:04 AM   #8
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As far as tuning in oversteer - the reason you generally don't want to do this is that it is not safe for "normal" driving.
Emergency maneuvers at highway speeds would be extremely dangerous and you certainly don't want to surprise anyone who may drive your car.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:06 AM   #9
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I'm looking to learn how to get the car to turn on the corners that I want it to. At RallyX events, there are some people in RS's and WRX's who manage to make their car turn quickly during a corner and get it pointing in the right direction, which seems much better than easing up on the gas.

Is the E-Brake semi-controllable? I've played around on snow it, and it seemed really hard to get the nose to point where you wanted it to.

johnfelstead, that's pretty cool. Is your suspension really stiff?
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:10 AM   #10
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If you're not experienced enough to play with weight shift and momentum, please DON'T set your suspension up to oversteer.

It's really easy to initiate a tailslide with braking and a very slight pendulum motion. Find a reasonably wide dirt road or field and do the following:

1) Pull the ABS fuse.
2) Drive in a straight line at about 40mph.
3) Squeeze the brakes medium-hard, just enough to compress the front suspension so you feel the weight start to come forward.
4) Waggle the steering wheel back and forth while braking. Start with very slight back and forth motions and gradually increase them on successive runs until you feel the back end just start to slide a bit.
5) Cancel the slight slide by steering straight (in the direction the tail is coming out) and get back going straight again. Should be very easy since you'll only be going about 25-30mph at this point.
6) Repeat until you get comfortable with the point where your steering input makes the back end just start to slide.
7) Now (assuming you have enough room) try it where you get back on the gas as soon as the slide starts. Don't floor it, just give it about 50-70% throttle. At that magic moment, you can make the car do whatever you want. Counter steer as in 5 above and it'll straighten right out. Keep turning and you can slide right around a turn in a perfect AWD drift.

You can practice all this stuff at very low speeds without much danger. Like most people, I learned to do this just driving on local dirt roads. Once you've learned that feeling and how to initiate and control it, you'll do much better (and have much more fun) at rallycrosses.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:13 AM   #11
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Easiest/cheapest way is to put a lot MORE air pressure in the rear tyres than the fronts. Try say 40lbs hot in the front and 45-50lbs hot in the rears - depends how much you oversteer you want. More pressure = smaller contact patch = less grip (all other things being equal). That should make it slidey on tarmac.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
As I understand it, the flick involves executing several different techniques that most people aren't used to, in rapid succession, and is usually covered as one of the last things in rally school. So I'm guessing that without a lot of quality time alone with a dirt lot, or the rally school idea, I probably won't figure that one out.
a flick really is pretty simple once you get used to it. the best way, as Mr. Felstead said, is to practice. As such, you should attend St. Louis Region SCCA RallyCrosses in order to learn how to make a car go fast on dirt in a safe and fun manner
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: Getting the WRX to oversteer

Quote:
Originally posted by interiot
[b]I know this has most people stumped, but are there any good tips for making the WRX oversteer when you need it to?
CUSCO rear sway bar, CUSCO front sway bar, Whiteline rear endlinks, Whiteline rear endlinks. Tire pressure (with RE92s) at 42 all around. I did each of the four components above, one at a time. It wasn't until I had all four in that the car followed the line I wanted, regardless of what the back end was doing. Without the front endlinks, you can oversteer, but with less control.

Set the rear bar in the middle, and the car will oversteer on any sharp corner if you either turn quickly with the gas steady or turn steady and jab the gas. Stiffen the rear bar all the way and the back end will come around VERY easily.

In a rallycross or in snow, this works even better, but it'll work perfectly on any pavement I've been on.

Empty parking lots are the best place to practice

And my guess is that guy said not to tune your suspension for it for the same reason almost ever car is sold to understeer. In an emergency, your average person will panic if the car starts to oversteer. If you panic, the car will spin. If the car understeers, and you panic, you just go straight. If you know how to handle oversteer, don't worry about it.
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:55 PM   #14
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I'm asking about how to iniate oversteer in my car, of course I don't know how to control oversteer yet. People overestimate their own skill all the time, there's no need to encourage them.

They guy says "balance the car mechanically". Does he mean, make it neutral, and then choose understeer or oversteer by how you drive the car? Does anyone know if World Rally Championship cars are biased towards the front or the back, or if they're usually more neutral?
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by interiot
I'm asking about how to iniate oversteer in my car, of course I don't know how to control oversteer yet. People overestimate their own skill all the time, there's no need to encourage them.

They guy says "balance the car mechanically". Does he mean, make it neutral, and then choose understeer or oversteer by how you drive the car? Does anyone know if World Rally Championship cars are biased towards the front or the back, or if they're usually more neutral?
to answer your first question, when you in the middle of a hard corner (on the throttle) when you car has leaned over as far as it will go, at the same time, turn harder (turn into the corner harder) , and lift the throttle abruptly. Just make sure you have plenty of room to spin, and please don't do this on the street!

Yes, I think the guy means to make the car neutural.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:12 PM   #16
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just pondering the same question with gt3 (ps2)
it seem if you soften the front end and stiffen the rear.
also positive toe on the front negitive on the rear it will over steer really good
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Old 12-20-2002, 01:47 AM   #17
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If you cant get the car to oversteer in the dirt you dont know how to drive.

Fix the nut behind the wheel is my only suggestion. (practice, practice, practice)







Tarmac is another thing all together...
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Old 12-20-2002, 02:35 AM   #18
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Yes, practice makes perfect.

Only been to two rallyX's so far, but I didn't enjoy it as much as autoX because I couldn't begin to get the car to do what I wanted it to (and it's a lot harder on the cars!).
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:09 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by interiot


johnfelstead, that's pretty cool. Is your suspension really stiff?
Not really, i am on fast road spec springs, 325lb front and 225lb rear if i remember corectly. I have wound the damping up quite hard though, as the track is very smooth, tyre presures are at 40psi all round too. Anti-roll bars are just stock STi5 Type RA which are quite stiff compared to a WRX.
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Old 12-26-2002, 11:49 PM   #20
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Ahh, the likely original author (Pete Mathewson) relpied to my emails about setting up the suspension:

Quote:
... it is pretty standard logic in the rally community to set an AWD car dead neutral or as close as the designer will let you for the dirt. There are varying opinions on setup for FWD and RWD, but I still favor a balanced car which you force into the drift with brake and accellerator. - It is for handling on stage. Good handling on stage = Safety. Most of us put on a trailer after the event and don't use them as daily drivers.
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Old 12-27-2002, 03:17 PM   #21
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-which I think is an important point: A setup that is reasonable for limited competion use on a surface or series of surfaces that are known(recce'd) quantities (gravel, tarmac, mud) and for which the car has been intentionally prepared with respect to tread pattern, etc., is not what you might find manageable for road use, with unpredictable conditions and unpredictable company (other drivers) on general-purpose tires.
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Old 12-27-2002, 03:46 PM   #22
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He replied with a little more:

Quote:
Neutral is where you want to be at least for dirt in a US style blind rally (no recon). Not only can the road go anywhere you will not know where it goes until you get there. Additionally, If you are driving to oversteer, you (not the car) is in control.
But yeah, all of this may still only apply to non-daily-drivers.

Does anyone know of a good setup that's adjustable enough that you can adjust it to near-stock for daily driving, but change it pretty quickly to near-absolute-neutral for racing? I won't be able to have two cars for four more years.
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Old 12-29-2002, 02:52 PM   #23
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My new thing is watching Best Motoring and I noticed that with FR and 4WD cars they play with the wheel sizes; e.g., narrower rear wheels. Doesn't this decrease the amount of understeer, and allow you to slide the rear with more ease? Have any of you tried this?

Last edited by extraducksauce; 12-29-2002 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 12-29-2002, 05:12 PM   #24
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There are great number of things you can do to tune a car for more oversteer or understeer, see this list for many of them. Still, you can get even a FWD car to oversteer by using only driving techniques (no suspension tweaks), and it sounds like that may be preferable at times.
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Old 01-01-2003, 02:17 PM   #25
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Here's another great summary page on car setup:

http://www.susquehanna.com/susq/other/stuning.htm
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