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Old 12-24-2002, 07:25 PM   #1
huckedup16
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Default P2 2.5 block to P1 2.2 Heads

Im possibly interested in swappin in a Phase 2 ej25 block into my 95 Legacy and using the stock Phase 1 ej22 heads. What kinda of gains can I expect from this set up. How labor intensive is it? Could it be completed in say one overnighter if the block is prepped outside of the car? Both of my parents need their cars for work so I cant have more than 2 days downtime. I have the chiltons for the car and would be helping with the swap so I would like to get as much info before I jump in and start looking for wrecked GTs or RS's to pull a block from.
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Old 12-24-2002, 07:37 PM   #2
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why not just use a 99 RS motor?

Jay
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Old 12-24-2002, 08:33 PM   #3
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I dunno. GTBguy suggested using the p2 block and p1 heads.
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Old 12-24-2002, 09:26 PM   #4
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phase 1 SOHC Heads=Crap
Phase 1 DOHC/Late production(98)=Good
Phase 2 SOHC Head=Good, but needs cams badly
Phase 2 DOHC=The Shiznit for turbo
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Old 12-26-2002, 09:19 AM   #5
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forgive my ignorance on the phase1 phase 2 terminology, but are the phase 1 2.2 heads the ones with the dual exhaust ports, and phase 2 2.2 heads with the single exhaust port?

I believe the reason GTBguy suggested this is due to the fact that if you put the 2.2 heads on a 2.5 block it will bump up the compression ratio. The older 2.2 heads the ones on the first gen legacy and such with the dual exhaust ports have smaller valves then the newer 2.2 heads with the single exhaust port.

IMO 2 exhaust ports are better then one, but I don't know if the 2 is better then 1 deal is better then having larger valves....

I'd prob go for the larger valves......but that's me.
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Old 12-26-2002, 03:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by legacy777
forgive my ignorance on the phase1 phase 2 terminology, but are the phase 1 2.2 heads the ones with the dual exhaust ports, and phase 2 2.2 heads with the single exhaust port?

I believe the reason GTBguy suggested this is due to the fact that if you put the 2.2 heads on a 2.5 block it will bump up the compression ratio. The older 2.2 heads the ones on the first gen legacy and such with the dual exhaust ports have smaller valves then the newer 2.2 heads with the single exhaust port.

IMO 2 exhaust ports are better then one, but I don't know if the 2 is better then 1 deal is better then having larger valves....

I'd prob go for the larger valves......but that's me.
actually compared to the 2.5 heads the legacy heads don't flow at all. And the 2.5 heads net you higher compression.

and as far as labor intensive i hope you know what you are doing because the head torquing procedure gets rather intricate.

Jeremy
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Old 12-26-2002, 07:38 PM   #7
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Thats why I have a Chiltons sitting next to me that my mechanic friend and I will be following. I will need to get new "torque to yeild" bolts right?
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Old 12-27-2002, 02:24 AM   #8
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no the bolts do not need to be replaced, but you might want to get an actual copy of the subaru manuals because chilton's is known to be wrong and the heads have the most FUNKY torqueing procedure.

jeremy
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Old 12-27-2002, 10:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by HndaTch627
actually compared to the 2.5 heads the legacy heads don't flow at all. And the 2.5 heads net you higher compression.

and as far as labor intensive i hope you know what you are doing because the head torquing procedure gets rather intricate.

Jeremy
Take a look at this thread.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=EJ22+heads

I've personally talked with bobjr94 & SubyTechMaster, not on this particular issue, but I trust their knowledge and that they know what they are talking about.

Josh
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Old 12-27-2002, 02:04 PM   #10
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right but if you read between the lines of what he said the only heads that were decent are the single port heads from 95 on(OBD-2). You have to remember that cam lift and duration plays a big part in fueling an engine, fueling a 2.5 to the same redline as the 2.2 will be screaming for more air/fuel. Noitce he said pinging under certain conditions, well FYI the static compression of the Phase 2 EJ25 is 12.0:1, you drop the compression but changing the cam duration to overlap, you birng it back up by limiting that overlap. I'd be very curious to grab the stock manual and compare cam shaft lobe hieghts and durations...hell maybe i'll do it this weekend.

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Old 12-27-2002, 07:25 PM   #11
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You are right.....I didn't really take into account the lift and duration.

I believe he said they were getting pinging due to having such a high compression ratio.....however I guess if the valves are not big enough, & lift and duration are not great enough that will starve the engine and cause the combustion mix to go lean.....which can cause the pre-ignition/detonation problems.

I'm curious to know what you find out with the EJ25 stuff.

Here is the info I have for the EJ22 phase 1. It's all coming straight out of the FSM for my 90 legacy.

Cam width: 28mm
Cam height: 32.39-32.49mm

So that would give you a max lift of 4.39-4.49mm

It doesn't directly give you duration, however it gives timing on the intake & exhaust valves individually

Intake Valve Timing:

Opening: 4 degrees BTDC
Closing: 52 degrees ABDC

Exhaust Valve Timing:

Opening: 48 degrees BBDC
Closing: 12 degrees ATDC

So....from those numbers we can say the following.

Intake valve duration: 236 degrees
Exhaust valve duration: 240 degrees


You can infer and figure out some more stuff like overlap....but I gotta run. If someone else wants to figure it out feel free

Josh

edit: I found a major snafu when comparing FSM's for my 90 & ones for 92 MY. They had the cam width at 32mm.....and since my brain wasn't working......I didn't catch that the cam needs a little more lift then .49mm's

So don't take this data as absolute.

Last edited by legacy777; 12-27-2002 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 12-28-2002, 05:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by legacy777
Cam width: 28mm
Cam height: 32.39-32.49mm

So that would give you a max lift of 4.39-4.49mm

It doesn't directly give you duration, however it gives timing on the intake & exhaust valves individually

Intake Valve Timing:

Opening: 4 degrees BTDC
Closing: 52 degrees ABDC

Exhaust Valve Timing:

Opening: 48 degrees BBDC
Closing: 12 degrees ATDC

So....from those numbers we can say the following.

Intake valve duration: 236 degrees
Exhaust valve duration: 240 degrees
Well based on those numbers you have 16 degrees of valve overlap from the time the Intake valve open to the time that the exhaust valve closes.

Now here are the numbers for the EJ25 SOHC
I screwed something up so i can't get the lift, but i have

IVO: 1.0 BTDC
IVC: 51.0 ABDC
EVO: 50.0 BBDC
EVC: 6.0 ATDC

Intake valve duration 232 degrees
Exhaust Valve Duration 236 degrees

I have the intake valve lift set at 5.59mm and exhaust valve lift set at 5.36mm I will have to check all these number tommorrow.

That provides a lobe center of 113.5 and 7 degrees of valve overlap. Which is most likely why the changed the orientation of the exhaust valves to induce combustion chamber swirl to help scavenge exhaust.

Jeremy
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Old 12-29-2002, 12:08 AM   #13
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P2 SOHC EJ22 and EJ25 head info

from the manual

cam base circle 34.00mm

EJ22
Intake Lift-Service limit 4.632mm
Intake Lift-Standard 4.732-4.832mm
Exhaust Lift-Service Limit 5.157mm
Exhaust Lift-Standard 5.257-5.357mm

EJ25
Intake Lift-Service Limit 5.385mm
Intake Lift-Standard 5.485-5.585mm
Exhaust Lift-Service Limit 5.517mm
Exhaust Lift-Standard 5.257-5.357mm

Cam Timing

EJ22
IVO:2 BTDC
IVC:50 ABDC
EVO:46 BBDC
EVC:6 ATDC

8 Degrees valve overlap

Intake Duration 232 degrees
Exhaust Duration 232 degrees

EJ25
IVO:1 BTDC
IVC:51 ABDC
EVO:50 BBDC
EVC:6 ATDC

7 Degrees valve overlap

Intake Duration 232 degrees
Exhaust Duration 236 degrees

Interestingly enough the compression ratios on both engines are 10.0:1 Dynamic, the valve spring rates are identical. So by all this math the RS cams are REALLY starving the power band to feed the larger of the 2 engine where as the 2.2 cam's are probably just about right for the application.

Hope some of this info helps.


Jeremy
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Old 12-29-2002, 08:37 AM   #14
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So Jeremy, the 2.2 and 2.5L Phase2 heads share the same valves? The only difference being the Single/Dual port and the cam profile? How about the combusion chamber volume/quench area.

From the info gathered between you and SubyTechMaster its sounding more and more like the 2.2L heads could take the 2.5L cams and come out with similar static flows.

Now the question is. How to identify Phase2 2.2L heads. Its safe to say if the heads are dual-port 2.2 heads, they are Phase1 for certain.

But is it impossible to say if single port heads are Phase1 or 2? Do the Cali spec TLEV single-port heads have a EGR port or not? Any other way of distiquishing it from the outside? By model year?

I found an interesting page on some Cali auto page for the 98MY:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccbg/98pc.htm
(alternate model years availible by changing the year in the URL)

Quote:
Subaru TLEV's 1998
model displacement engine family number
Legacy 2.2 L WFJXV02.2BCB
Impreza 2.2 L WFJXV02.2BCB
Impreza Outback 2.2 L WFJXV02.2BCB
Forester 2.5 L WFJXV02.5DCD
My question is what this engine family number means, what it's derived from. I'll have to check if it resembles something from the VIN in which case it's an easy way to rule out a particular car with single port 2.2 heads being Phase1 or 2, or are all the Phase2 heads Cali TLEV compliant?

This is starting to get overwhelming. I'll rest this for another day. Basicly all I want to know is. Are 1997 heads P1 or P2, or hard to say since it was the first year of the new engine? And also, do 2.5 P2 cams fit in 2.2 P2 heads?

ChicksHateConfusion
-Brad
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Old 12-29-2002, 01:48 PM   #15
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Brad,

If I had to take a good educated guess on my knowledge of the 2.2 and what's been posted in the thread, I'd say you probably have the phase 2 heads. Not sure if there's any identifying marks on the heads to specify things or not.
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Old 12-29-2002, 07:33 PM   #16
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brad technically you could take stock 2.5 phase 2 cams and toss them in a Phase 2 2.2 head and end up witha cammed engine, now the only issue you are going to run into is that now you've cahnged the cam timing slight, but at the same time is it worth just not getting a set of cobb's street cams??

here's how you identify a phase 2 head

start here, if can see the head bolts w/o removing the valve cover then you have a phase 1 head, also IIRC phase 1 heads said subaru on the valve/rocker covers...you may see some torx looking bolts, these are actually the cam girdle/retainer bolts, they are torx plus.

for the 2.2
It will have a single exhaust port and when you look at the intake side the center mounting bolts are offset.

for the 2.5
It will have dual exhaust ports and also have offset intake mounting bolts.

Another little tip to remember, all Phase 2 engines use side feed injectors, unless changed thru quite a bit of custom fabrication.

as far as chamber volume ETC, there's no difference from what i can tell in the manual, they use the same compression with a smaller bore. They have the same valve reliefs in the pistons etc.

The valve springs even have the same weights. what does this all mean, that means if you have a phase 2 2.2l and you are looking for a bit more power you can upgrae to the 2.5 SOHC heads and with a decent decking job bump the compression a little. The only thing i can't guarantee but i am sure it's the same, is the position that the cam gear indexes on the camshaft itself.

For identify phase 1 2.2 L heads

They are dual port exhaust except for the TLEV models(which the vehicle should have under the hood)

Also they will have a straight bolt pattern for the intake.

if i think of anything more i'll add it later
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Old 12-30-2002, 07:42 AM   #17
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Jeremy, there we go! Just about all the information I needed to be sure. I was almost postitive I had the phase2 heads, because they were very significantly different from the heads on my 1990 Legacy, and my car has the updated engine as well.

The reason I'm curious about the combustion chamber is because there seems to be conflicting schools on putting 2.5l heads on 2.2L engines. Some people have said the head fits, but the difference in bore causes there to be a step. Some people say it's completey fine. If different people were using phase1 or phase2 heads that makes sense if the chamber volume is the same as the 2.2 on the Phase2 2.5L heads. HOWEVER, the chart I have shows the head volume on the 2.5l heads to be larger...so that throws that theory out the window if the information is accurate. (but since it also says the EJ22 bore is 99.7mm ( ) the accuracy of everything else is very suspect)

SO, since in theory 2.5 (stock and aftermarket) cams should fit the P2 2.2l heads and flow similarly, it would be a good matched head for a EJ22T buildup with a custom turbo header.

Jeremy: You don't mind if I save the information you spouted out for my website do you? I'm determined to decode everything and put it in a place where everybody can easily understand and find it.

-Brad
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Old 12-30-2002, 10:01 AM   #18
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Hey Brad,

Not sure if you're looking at swapping heads or just cams, or something else for your EJ22T buildup.

But I'd suggest taking a read at this http://www.xmission.com/~dac/library/headswap.htm

And for posterities sake. Here's the cam info for the EJ22T

Here is the info I have for the EJ22T. It's all coming straight out of the 92 FSM.

Cam width: 28mm
Cam height: 32.286-32.386mm

So that would give you a max lift of 4.286-4.386mm

It doesn't directly give you duration, however it gives timing on the intake & exhaust valves individually

Intake Valve Timing:

Opening: 6 degrees BTDC
Closing: 52 degrees ABDC

Exhaust Valve Timing:

Opening: 42 degrees BBDC
Closing: 10 degrees ATDC

So....from those numbers we can say the following.

Intake valve duration: 238 degrees
Exhaust valve duration: 232 degrees

Valve overlap: 16 degrees


NOTE: I've found errors before in the FSM.......so do not take this info as absolute, but merely as reference.

Josh
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Old 12-30-2002, 11:46 AM   #19
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brad i don't mind at all, i was acutally hoping they might turn this into some kinda sticky/archive. Throw all the info onto one thread.

Jeremy
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Old 12-31-2002, 04:40 AM   #20
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You guys have mostly figured this out. One correction though:
The CR for the P2 EJ25 (MY99+) is 9.45-9.59:1
The CR for the P2 EJ22 (MY99+) is 10.00-10.22:1 given inter-phase variances.
ALL the extra compression in the 2.2L is in the combustion chamber design/shape. This shape also improves flow to the siamesed exh ports which merge into a single outlet. Both engines use pistons w/ exactly the same dish, given that diameter is obviously different. It is obvious when looking at them side by side.
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Old 12-31-2002, 07:15 AM   #21
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Thanks guys, this is really good stuff. Once I get some free time I'll start to compile this info somewhere. I'm finding alot of different conflicting information!

Damianq: Thanks for clearing that up, I saw info saying the EJ22 P2 heads had a head volume around 41cc whereas the EJ25 P2 heads were 50cc. But that also lists the C/R for the engines as 9.6:1 on the 2.2 and 11.2:1 on the 2.5 (this may be static C/R, but it apears to be calculated either way) Another interesting point is the differences in gasket thickness over the years which was covered a little earlier. Stated as 0.152cm for EJ22 P2, and 0.058cm EJ25 P2.

Oh well, time to sleep again...


Quote:
NOTE: I've found errors before in the FSM.......so do not take this info as absolute, but merely as reference.
- Word. I've learned a long time ago to take every bit of information with a grain of salt before its verified concretely!

-Brad
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