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Old 12-29-2002, 02:34 AM   #1
hobbzz
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Default Max whp/bhp with STI injectors?

Title says it all...
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Old 12-29-2002, 05:06 AM   #2
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Default depends on how you use them

It all depends on how far you are willing to push them.

If you stay with factory fuel pressure of 43 psi, and limit your self to 80% duty cycle they are good for about 280 hp at the crank.

At 90% duty cycle they will support about 320 hp, at 43 psi fuel pressure.

If your willing to let them go static briefly you can get to 350 hp at 43 psi.

Add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and raise fuel pressure to about 55 psi and you can get about 370 HP at the crank with a 90% duty cycle.

This all assumes your getting a BSFC brake specific fuel consumption of .59 lb of fuel per hour per hp.

Larry
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Old 12-29-2002, 10:33 AM   #3
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How are guys getting over 320 whp with the sti injectors then? Also, how would increasing the displacement to 2.2l affect how much hp the sti injectors could produce?

Am I right in assuming this is in conjunction with an upgraded fuel pump (Walbro 255 liter fuel pump)?
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Old 12-29-2002, 11:48 AM   #4
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Only 280HP at the crank at 80% duty cycle, I thought it would be more. Doesn't the Stock STI make around 270-280crank HP? Having the injectors go static, or running over 90% duty cycle is prob. not a good idea unless your only doing it for 10-12sec. I would think..
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Old 12-29-2002, 12:39 PM   #5
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So then which injectors would you need for 400-450 bhp? And where can you get them? I've only seen/heard of the STI injectors...
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Old 12-29-2002, 01:45 PM   #6
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PE 650 injectors. They are expensive though. But as of right now we are limited on drop in injectors. But if your looking at making that kind of power. Then I think it's safe to assume you have the money to spend on them. If not, then you need to limit your goal. DO NOT go cheap on your fuel system!
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Old 12-29-2002, 02:05 PM   #7
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where can I get them?
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Old 12-29-2002, 04:20 PM   #8
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Default factory rating

PaulRex:
Quote:

Only 280HP at the crank at 80% duty cycle, I thought it would be more. Doesn't the Stock STI make around 270-280crank HP?
Bingo -- your right! Tthe stock STI is rated at exactly the same power as you should be getting with design fuel pressure and industry standard duty cycle!

silverscooby:
Quote:

How are guys getting over 320 whp with the sti injectors then? Also, how would increasing the displacement to 2.2l affect how much hp the sti injectors could produce?



They are changing either the tuning (which changes the engines BSFC) or they are bumping fuel pressure at the rails.

.59 BSFC is what the stock WRX gets with stock rich fuel settings. If you lean it out you do two things. You make more power on the same amount of fuel. You lose the cooling effect of the excess fuel so your are closer to the edge on EGT, and detonation.

most engines can get down to a BSFC of .5 but turbocharged engines are typically run at .60 - .65 to keep a safety cushion on cylinder temps and detonation.

Increasing the displacement would not change things, you can only produce so much power from so much fuel. What would happen is the injectors would go static at lower rpms because the 2.2 would be trying to fuel more air flow at any given rpm.

Larry
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Old 12-29-2002, 05:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: depends on how you use them

Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
It all depends on how far you are willing to push them.

If you stay with factory fuel pressure of 43 psi, and limit your self to 80% duty cycle they are good for about 280 hp at the crank.

At 90% duty cycle they will support about 320 hp, at 43 psi fuel pressure.

If your willing to let them go static briefly you can get to 350 hp at 43 psi.

Add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and raise fuel pressure to about 55 psi and you can get about 370 HP at the crank with a 90% duty cycle.

This all assumes your getting a BSFC brake specific fuel consumption of .59 lb of fuel per hour per hp.

Larry

larry. The Stock WRX uses a rising rate fuel presure regulator in conjuction with the pump controller. Back when my WRX was bone stock I hooked a mechanical gauge to the fuel feed line and ran it in the car for testing before I swapped out to my currect fuel system. 40 psi at idle. 55 psi at WOT. With a manual boost controller and a bit more boost I got about 58 psi. The STI cars use the same FPR. Your calculations of 43 psi are not very acurate in respect to WOT hp levels.

Currently I am running STI injectors at 95% IDC at 60 psi of pressure with a 210lph pump along with lines and Fuel rails. This is with 91 octane fuel and a nice rich 10.5 to 1 AF tuned on a wideband. Running the full weight car of 3350lbs I trapped 112.5mph on the 1/4. This works out to be 366whp according to my Dyno program which is inline with TXS dyno runs of setups close to mine. One guy with a setup like mine put down 376WHP and trapped 113.5 mph but he was on Race fuel as where I am on 91 octane oxy crap. Still.. Its close.

Installing rails cuts IDC down about 5-8% believe it or not. So with out rails my current level of Hp would not be possible on these injectors. I am out of fuel and cant go much more.. due to having to run so rich on 91 octane oxy fuel.

So.. With this in mind.. STI injectors are maxed at "around" 400-425 crank hp. With supporting fuel system mods and running pump fuel. Running race fuel with a leaner 12 to 1 AF I would imagine another 20-30hp is obtainable. No doubt about it. They are maxed in my car and I need larger injectors.


CT
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Old 12-29-2002, 06:10 PM   #10
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Default good real world numbers

AZscoobie:

Thanks for the real world ref number.

Just using the nominal values from the RCengineering tech page computor.
True the WRX has a rising rate regulator, but the actual flow through the injector is based on the pressure across the injector, so your 60 psi fuel pressure at WOT is working against a manifold pressure of maybe 18 psi so the differential pressure across the injector is about 42-43 psi which is the regulators design differential pressure.

If you had an adjustable rising rate regulator with a greater than 1:1 increase you could push it to even higher flow, but at around 95 psi fuel pressure, (75 psi differential pressure IIRC) you risk the injectors latching open and not closing properly.

These horsepower numbers of course depend on the actual flow rate of your specific injectors so with the common range in injectors of about 5 - 6% a car owner could have actual flow rates under nominal conditions any where from 522 - 577 cc/min on a nominal 550 injector.

As always way to many variables to give the nice neat answers everyone wants.

Nice to know about the effect of the fuel rails, I'm assuming that is because the ECU doesn't have to fuel for the leanest injector anymore and has more uniform fuel delivery.


Larry
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Old 12-29-2002, 06:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: good real world numbers

Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
AZscoobie:

Thanks for the real world ref number.

Just using the nominal values from the RCengineering tech page computor.
True the WRX has a rising rate regulator, but the actual flow through the injector is based on the pressure across the injector, so your 60 psi fuel pressure at WOT is working against a manifold pressure of maybe 18 psi so the differential pressure across the injector is about 42-43 psi which is the regulators design differential pressure.

If you had an adjustable rising rate regulator with a greater than 1:1 increase you could push it to even higher flow, but at around 95 psi fuel pressure, (75 psi differential pressure IIRC) you risk the injectors latching open and not closing properly.

These horsepower numbers of course depend on the actual flow rate of your specific injectors so with the common range in injectors of about 5 - 6% a car owner could have actual flow rates under nominal conditions any where from 522 - 577 cc/min on a nominal 550 injector.

As always way to many variables to give the nice neat answers everyone wants.

Nice to know about the effect of the fuel rails, I'm assuming that is because the ECU doesn't have to fuel for the leanest injector anymore and has more uniform fuel delivery.


Larry

My theory on the Rails is two fold. Because you are not running the smaller metal lines with kinks you increase fuel flow. With the rails you are using 5/16th line like the Filter has on it right to the larger Fuel logs. Second, I believe that people are overfueling 2 cyls heavily to get the desired AF as measured in the manifold where all four cyls are read(or downpipe). Once the fuel rails are installed and fueling to all Cyls is now equal, Fuel must be removed from the map in order to get back to the desired "whole" AF. People around here with Links have had to remove a great deal of fuel. One was using a wideband FJO and installed the perrin rails. I believe he said his AF went down almost a full point.... Comparing my Utec fuel maps to cars with close setups to mine is interesting. I have to remove about a figure of about .5-1.0 out of my fuel map to get to the same AF's as others.

I have attempted to run higher pressures on my fuel system but my PE210 pump will simply not hold anything past 60 psi of pressure. I can hit 75psi but by the time I get to 6k rpms that pressure is down to around 58 psi. It would be nice to run 70 as that would allow me to back off my 95% IDC a bit for some room. For now I except what I have and would rather go to larger injectors instead of using a band aid for a hatchet wound

CT
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Old 12-29-2002, 07:09 PM   #12
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Default something interesting

Just found something interesting. This formumla is from the book Four Stroke Performance Tuning.

Code:


Icc ( number cylinders) = HP x k

K = 5.6 for turbocharged/supercharged
Icc = manufactures nominal injector flow

So:

550 x (4)/5.6 = HP = 392.8 

Thats pretty close to your real world numbers. A little tweek of the K value for your set up, and you could quickly dial in to a max hp number.

By the way the author of this book will not run a street car injector past 85% duty cycle, so if you're willing to go higher, tweek the K value proportionalty.

This book has a bunch of good info in it I strongly recommend it to anyone who wants to push the envelope.


By the way my earlier comment on high fuel pressure I think is backwards, (can't find my Bosh manual right at the moment), I think at high fuel pressure the injector will latch closed and either not open at all or open erratically. I need to double check that but given how the injectors work as a pull open valve, it makes a lot more sense than latching open.

Larry
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Old 12-29-2002, 08:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: something interesting

Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
Just found something interesting. This formumla is from the book Four Stroke Performance Tuning.

Code:


Icc ( number cylinders) = HP x k

K = 5.6 for turbocharged/supercharged
Icc = manufactures nominal injector flow

So:

550 x (4)/5.6 = HP = 392.8 

Thats pretty close to your real world numbers. A little tweek of the K value for your set up, and you could quickly dial in to a max hp number.

By the way the author of this book will not run a street car injector past 85% duty cycle, so if you're willing to go higher, tweek the K value proportionalty.

This book has a bunch of good info in it I strongly recommend it to anyone who wants to push the envelope.


By the way my earlier comment on high fuel pressure I think is backwards, (can't find my Bosh manual right at the moment), I think at high fuel pressure the injector will latch closed and either not open at all or open erratically. I need to double check that but given how the injectors work as a pull open valve, it makes a lot more sense than latching open.

Larry

very interesting. Thanks for posting that. If I had some PE650s I would be all set. That would drop me down to the 80 range. One good thing about my state of tune is that I run very rich at 10.3-10.5 to 1 and I used 4 th gear to redline to tune with. Lower gears net lower IDC's. I notice no lean out on a 4th gear pull. I have plenty of fuel.. My IDC's are high and I wish I had some more room. But, Then again. My MAF reads around 4.6-4.7 volts which is about maxed for the utec and stock ECU.

From experience with RC(lucas) injectors, Control is lost around 95% Duty cycle and They latch Closed at 80 psi. I ran those injectors on a past project and had one latch closed during a 1/4 mile pass. This caused that cyl to run lean skyrocketing EGT's which in turn caused turbo failure. The shaft on the turbo overheated and snapped off. It was not until the turbo was replaced and I fired up the motor that I found the bad injector.



Thanks

Clark
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Old 12-29-2002, 09:14 PM   #14
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Default Here's the full formula

Okay I did a little reverse engineering on that formula and here's where it is coming from.



Full formula

Code:


HP  = (number cylinders) x  (Injector Fuel Flow)cc/min / ((BSFC x 10.5)/IDC)


10.5  conversion factor from lb/hr to cc/min




If you want to include fuel supply pressure in the equation  then it becomes:

HP  = (number cylinders) x  (Injector Fuel Flow)cc/min  x [sqrt (P1/Pr) ] / ((BSFC x 10.5)/IDC)



Where Pr = the pressure the injector is rated at, and P1 = the differential pressure across the injector.

ie (P1= fuel line pressure - manifold pressure)
This implies that his K of 5.6 comes from the combination of three terms in the raw equation ( BSFC x 10.5/IDC )= K

This works back to a BSFC of .5333 at 100 % duty cycle. This is a little leaner than the .59 the stock WRX gets.

For our .59 BSFC we should use a K of 6.195


Using industry standard values
.59 x 10.5/.80 = Brings us back to the original stock value of about 280 Hp.

It appears this quick formula is an ABSOLUTE MAX number.

Pay your money and take your choice.



Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-29-2002 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 12-30-2002, 04:43 AM   #15
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Default

Given a minimum of a 210 LPH pump, the Sti injectors will easily net you 400 HP at the motor with good REAL IDC (not the often falsely calculated IDC most people tend to quote) at stcok fuel pressures with the right management system (and tuner) running the show.

Adam
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Old 12-30-2002, 05:26 AM   #16
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Default Z1 is this the IDC computation you ment

Z1 Is this thread the IDC computation you were mentioning about computing the IDC from the IPW numbers?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=155364

As I recall you've mentioned this several times over the last year or two. Not sure if this is the best thread discussion of it, but just to bring it back to the top.

Larry
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Old 12-30-2002, 08:25 AM   #17
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Clark could you please explain the maf voltage thing in greater detail, or start a new thread on it for future reference. thanks!
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Old 12-30-2002, 09:41 AM   #18
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I think with stock fuel rails and STI's at 60psi, 350hp at motor and about 275hp @ wheels on a dyno jet.
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Old 12-30-2002, 11:00 AM   #19
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Yep thats the correct method of computing IDC
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Old 12-30-2002, 11:34 AM   #20
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mlambert
Clark could you please explain the maf voltage thing in greater detail, or start a new thread on it for future reference. thanks!

In short, What is happening with my setup is that I am flowing the max the MAF sensor can flow. The sensor reads 0-5volts. Others have found that the ECU will only read up to 4.6-4.8 volt window and after that calculated flow is flat lined. This would be a limiting factor of the Utec or any system that uses the stock MAF housing and sensor. I am at that limit at 19-20 psi of boost. What happends is that I loose the ability to fine tune fuel past those levels. Since the Utec uses a MAP based column against RPM for ROW in the fuel map I can still control things in the MAP columns. But, Once that MAF voltage gets to 4.7+ the ECU is running wide open and does not have the ability to add more fuel based on flow.

Options include going to a larger MAF housing and or using other trickery. The stock housing is 2.599 inches in diameter. Going to a larger housing such as a 2.8-3 inch diamter pipe would cause much less air to read over the sensor itself. Your Fuel maps would have to be completely redone to compensate for this and it means you loose the stock airbox which I would hate.

The MAF to MAP conversion for the Utec is a feature that was talked about before. This is the main reason for it. Second is that turbo kits you will start to see on the market will use turbos with 3 inch+ inlet sizes. I hope the MAP Conversion piece comes to the market..

For now the car runs great and only flat lines when pushed real hard.


CT
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Old 12-30-2002, 08:32 PM   #21
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CT - yep, this happens on cars modded to similar states of tune as yours. Once the Utec permits covnersion to full MAP, watch the timeslips drop like a hammer..you cannot beat full on MAP on a turbo car.

In Japan HKSreleased the VPC for the earlier cas and will have the new age one done shortly as well, though its a costly option given the fact the Utec will permit full on MAP converison in the future.
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Old 12-31-2002, 12:33 AM   #22
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Sorry to hijack, but it seems like we have some very intelligent folks here.

Who can explain why my IDCs are 100% with the following setup....

ScoobySport downpipe
ScoobySport catless center section
Borla catback
Desnorkeled stock airbox
Stock injectors/fuel pump


I'm hitting 100% IDCs at about 5800 RPM. That is on the stock computer (UTEC in stock mode). Boost was at 12.2 PSI.
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:23 AM   #23
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Please re-read my post on IDC..first thing is you need to know how you are calculating IDC...most do it incorrectly and it vastly skews results
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Old 12-31-2002, 09:27 AM   #24
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Z1 Performance
Please re-read my post on IDC..first thing is you need to know how you are calculating IDC...most do it incorrectly and it vastly skews results
Hey Adam. Do you agree with the Utec's and Delta dash's Readings?


CT
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Old 12-31-2002, 03:59 PM   #25
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Default Hard numbers on subaru dead times

Does anyone have hard numbers on typical dead times for the injectors used by Subaru both stock and STi?

My understanding is that the IDT (Injector Dead Time) can range from .25 -1.25 ms depending on injector design and supply voltage

(by the way CT -- that's another voltage supply issue with fueling!! The dead time on the injectors changes with supply voltage as well as the fuel pump output )


To put things in a formula then the duty cycle should be:

Code:


(IPW + IDT)/ ((120/rpm ) x 1000) = IDC

IPW = Injector Pulse width ms
IDT = Injector dead time ms
IDC = Injector duty cycle


edit (01/20/03) I got an email from the folks at RC engineering the other day, they say the typical dead time for our injectors is 1.3 - 1.4 ms.




Z1 does that look right?

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 01-20-2003 at 05:55 AM.
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