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Old 02-20-2001, 12:14 AM   #1
HYDCSX400
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Question What's the dif. between open and closed deck?

I'm not new to the inside of an eng. but I am new to Subies. Can someone give me a clue?

Also If any one knows some good web sits with lots of tech. info and specs. on both the euro. and us spec. eng.'s that would be of some help to me in my future build up plans.

thanks, Caine

[This message has been edited by HYDCSX400 (edited February 20, 2001).]
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:45 AM   #2
5252
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Cool

Froggy went a courtin' he did ride!

[This message has been edited by 5252 (edited February 20, 2001).]
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Old 02-20-2001, 07:55 AM   #3
mrbell
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Cobb doesn't supply the info because he doesn't want people doing something stupid. Welding anything requires alot of skill but to weld something like an engine block requires that you don't burn anything at all, you don't warp anything, and it's aluminum which is about 2x's harder to weld than most other things. You also would then have to remachine the deck to get a good surface. All the while, you still have to make sure you get enough openings for oil to go thru. If you are this good at welding and machining and understand engines enough to actually attempt something like this, you don't need treys advice to begin with.
Also, from what I understand, Trey gets the blocks done by a master welder anyway...
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Old 02-20-2001, 08:22 AM   #4
ColinL
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Ah, a relatively rare post from my good friend "nocaps" from waaay back on Simon's board. Still have the supercharger?

Why not pay Trey the $400? How much can you get a 2.5L core for-- is it worth the risk of experimenting yourself?

Just curious.
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Old 02-20-2001, 10:07 AM   #5
HYDCSX400
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Hey thanks guys but I'm not trying to buy one, I want to know more about them. I already learned that the closed block is stronger. But does it need anything else to make up for the smaller water jackets (like a difrent water pump, or bigger rad.) and how far can you push your luck with an open block before you have to worry about a melt down????

The reason I'm asking is I am planning a build up project that will hopefuly start this summer and I don't have the money to make mistakes that can be avoided with a little (but I plan on doing a lot of) research.

check out my other thread: http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum1/HTML/019422.html

thanks, Caine
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Old 02-20-2001, 10:20 AM   #6
ColinL
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Don't worry about open deck unless you are visiting extreme RPMs or generating very high cylinder pressures. Or both, or you have $400 to spare.
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Old 02-20-2001, 10:57 AM   #7
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I guess bubblegum is out of the question? Yeah,totally stupid. I am *stupid* for trying it. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Old 02-20-2001, 11:24 AM   #8
ColinL
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Dude, I didn't mean necessarily that it was stupid to try since Trey had already done it. I'm sure there are people out there that have experience with block inserts, filler and welding to do it just fine by themselves.

I'm not one of them.
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Old 02-20-2001, 01:32 PM   #9
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you would be amazed at the number of motors that Block gards and inserts have ruined. Not only can you mess up the alignment of the bores, but it GREATLY reduces the cooling of said cylinders.

Does ANYONE have PROOF that the newer open deck blocks have less ability to hold HP than the old closed deck? Recall that the process to build the newer opendeck blocks if far better than the old, and the materials used are also better.

If you REALLY need a diaper and balnkey to live life, go buy the new STi block with the supports above and below the cylinders. If that still isn't enough to let you sleep at night cryo treat the stupid thing.

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Old 02-20-2001, 04:00 PM   #10
HYDCSX400
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cool! but does anyone have some links so I can find some more specs?
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Old 02-21-2001, 12:51 AM   #11
mhj
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A company called Nuformz makes a machined metal piece for Hondas that fills in the water jacket. It is supposedly a do it yourselfer's job to install it (just drop it in and bang on it with a rubber hammer to seat it, although some people weld it in). Maybe they can make something for Subies.

There are also other methods that are not engine specific like pinning (where they screw something in between the water jacket and cylinder to keep it from moving) and resleeving with ductile cast iron liners. Neither is a do it yourself job.

Another thing to think about is that the new EJ20s are no longer closed deck either. So, closing the deck may not even be necessary for Subaru engines. I think replacing the connecting rods and transmission gears are higher priorities.

Here are some pics:
<IMG SRC="http://www.sgpracing.com/images/civbk-3.jpg" border=0>
notice the honda cylinders are completely floating (no connection on top of cylinder to block). The above pic is with a BlockGuard in place.
<IMG SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BC-BFLegacyWorks/files/0158_3mg.jpg" border=0>
The above pic is a closed deck EJ20.
<IMG SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BC-BFLegacyWorks/files/0231_12mg.jpg" border=0>
The above pic is an open deck subaru engine (notice the cylinders are still connected to the main block at the top, preventing a lot of cylinder movement)
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Old 02-21-2001, 10:18 AM   #12
mhj
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Regarding the cooling issue of the blockguards, what many people do is mill out the holes into slots to increase coolant flow. I have heard of a lot of people blowing their engines with blockguards, but there are a lot of people that don't. It all depends on what other precautions you take.

I agree with XT6, in that I haven't heard of any open deck Subaru engines blowing up, so a closed deck may not be totally necessary. I have heard of pistons blowing out in detonation, but no block problems.

In case you want a cheaper "diaper and blankey" than the STi block, I hear that you can get a 2.2L turbo (closed deck) block (shortblock with pistons, crank, rods) NEW for about $1000 from Subaruparts.com. With 2.5L heads, that'll be a nice setup.

HYD, what kind of specs are you looking for?
A good link page is: http://home.earthlink.net/~gndiamant/subaru.htm
There are a lot of sites there that have all kinds of specs.
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