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Old 02-22-2001, 07:58 AM   #1
Jon Bogert
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Post Oil weight for high performance cars

Since conventional Scooby wisdom is that 0W30 is an appropriate weight, I thought I'd throw this on the fire. Found on Scoobynet, this letter from a Mobil engineer refers specifically to a Mitsubishi FTO, but the advice is pretty general...

"More on oil - here's an email from Mobil
[from the Technical Manager for Mobil Oil]

The Mitsubishi FTO is a high tech engine with the latest design and best materials in construction. When new, the engine is clean and tolerances are fine. Common sense suggests that to keep it like this and in tune for best performance you have to use a quality lubricant.

The most stable products on the market and those which are being chosen by manufacturers for extended service are fully synthetic PAO (PolyAlphaOlefin). This includes Castrol SLX, Esso Ultron and Mobil 1. These products are extremely stable in extremes of performance. Next consideration is viscosity. At the low temperature end you need a 0W to give the best flow around the engine and ability to satisfy hydraulic tappets and variable valve timing.

Note: 0W is not thin when cold. It is just thinner than higher numbered oils, in fact it is around 10 times thicker at 20 degrees than the oil is when at 100 degrees. For best high temperature performance you need an oil which has a High Temperatre High Shear (HTHS) rating of 3.5 minimum. This will usually mean a 40 weight oil. The high quality base oil and strong additive package make sure the oil does not shear and become lower than this figure. If it does, you have wear at best and siezure at worst. So there is the case for Mobil 1 0w-40. If it were my road car, and I drive enthusiastically! I would use Mobil 1 0W-40.

However if you do not have low temperature situations, or care not about start up fuel economy, and run your FTO as an ultimate balls out rally car, then Mobil 1 Motorsport at 15W-50 may be the way to go to give you ultimate protection at the limit (thicker oil film at highest temperature and power).

For your interest the product being promoted by Mitsubishi dealers (Castrol Magnatec) is offered to maximise profit potential from a relatively inferior cheap product. It is a mineral oil with a small percentage of non PAO synthetic to allow the not so low rating of 10w. Sure it will work and the engine will not sieze up. But consider the longer term !! Why do Castrol have a top tier SLX grade. And why are they launching a 0W-40 SLX onto the market. To copycat Mobil 1 0W-40 !!"

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Old 02-22-2001, 08:14 AM   #2
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Oh god, not another oil topic... You groan about the Earnhardt topics but willingly start this?

The product names don't make sense to most of us because they don't match North American product names.

A consideration about really light weight cold oils (0W)-- some oil remains on the top of the cylinder head after the engine (and thus oil pump) stop, correct? But yet there are oil galleries that can allow oil to flow back to the crankcase. Now isn't it possible that an oil that continues to flow well when cold will seep down the galleries more completely than a more viscous oil?

We're all so concerned about how fast it flows once the pump starts running and all the parts are moving. I say: what about when it first fires if there is hardly any oil remaining up top?

My crazy theory/question is not (completely) wild speculation. I noted considerably more cold start valvetrain noise using 5w30, but haven't tried 0w30. From where I stand I don't need it...

At any rate, I use 10w30 Syntec. I would imagine Syntec is the same as the SLX this author mentions, and Syntec Blend is the less-than-desirable Magnatec he refers to.

[This message has been edited by ColinL (edited February 22, 2001).]
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Old 02-22-2001, 08:22 AM   #3
Jon Bogert
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Well, I ignored everything in that article except the oil weight points that were made. My opinion is that if you drive around at 4000RPM all the time (like I do) and you have a turbo (like I will, really soon) maybe 0W30 isn't quite as good as 0W40.
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Old 02-22-2001, 08:35 AM   #4
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Octane and motor oil could have their own forum lately
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Old 02-22-2001, 10:36 AM   #5
ColinL
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Gotcha, Jon. So are you wondering if 40 weight has merit in an EJ series motor that's run hard, especially track use? I'd say yes, absolutely.
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Old 02-22-2001, 11:09 AM   #6
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I don't think 0W-40 is offered in North America, Jon. This is going to limit your choices. Also, stay AWAY from 10W-40 conventional oil (or any large viscosity spread in conventional oils).

For synthetics, 5W-30 and 15W-50 should be all you need. FWIW, I use Mobil 1 5W-30 (but I have a vested interest ).

Steve
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Old 02-22-2001, 01:46 PM   #7
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I wonder why the Mobil employee thinks that the Castrol products are junk.
I don't buy into oils. I use Castrol GTX because I like the white bottle with the green cap. Oil is oil. I'm not interested in paying for synthetic oils, because I don't see the proof. There are Hondas/Subarus/Chevys/Fords that are thirty years old still running just fine out there, and they didn't use synthetics their whole life.
I did buy the OEM oil filter this past oil change, and I actually liked it better than the Frams I've used for over 8 years. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I put a new filter on, I fill it up first. The Purolator seemed to allow oil to flow into it better. The Frams always took forever to drain the oil in. Is it that the Fram filters better? Hmm. I don't know. I don't really care. At $4 from the dealer/online ventures, (www.subaruparts.com, subaruparts.homeastead.com, etc) for the filter and crush ring, it can't be beat.
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Old 02-22-2001, 01:57 PM   #8
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So, all you use on your nice car is petroleum based oils and Fram filters?
Do you also follow the recomended oil change interval of 6000 miles?

Personally, I use Mobil1 5w30 with Purolator filters. I know that I could go to 6000 miles with this oil, but I change at 3000 anyway. I think it is even safer, plus I like the excuse to work on the car. I don't feel the need to go to a 0 weight oil, as it gets cold her, but not THAT cold.

[This message has been edited by jlyttle (edited February 22, 2001).]
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Old 02-22-2001, 03:58 PM   #9
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That's interesting stuff Jon. Over on a lubricants message board, a similar topic came up the other day. I've copied the thread as it stands now to paste it here for your review. I just want to toss it out here for additional info/discussion. (I've got more to say, I just want to post this first).

Rich


Subject: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40?
From: bhdfield
Date: 20-Feb-01

I have a 2000 VR6 Jetta with 15,000 miles. After using Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 in the summer, and Mobil 1 5w-30 in the winter, and doing an oil analysis, I've decided to switch back to the recommended 5w-40. The TBN in my Mobil 1 after 4,600 miles was 4.6. Oxidation was over 35%. The Valvoline synth 5w-40 did much better, and recorded 50% fewer wear metals. 5w-40 is also what VW specifies as its first choice in any climate, while 5w-30 may be used if 5w-40 is not available. Well, I found the 5w-40 but intended to use it only in the summer, but seeing the Mobil 1 performance, I'm going back to Valvoline. Any thoughts on this, and why VW would specify a rather heavy oil in this era of the 5w-30?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40?
From:
Date: 20-Feb-01

it's obvious that the mobil can't handle the engine loads. i dont have an answer as to why VW recommend what they do, maybe the engine load factor is one of the reasons? and it's good to see you have quoted some analysis numbers. but a word of caution, "the AMSIOL GUYS will come up with a million reasons why the Valvoline is no good, and that VW are idiots etc. And that no one will endeavor to address your question;

Subject: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40? From: bhdfield Date: 20-Feb-01

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40?
From: TS
Date: 20-Feb-01

VW and Audi recommend SAE 5w-40 oils as most xw-30 oils don't meet the ACEA (European) A3/B3 specifications for hight temp/high shear viscosity. The minimum requirement is >3.5 Centipoise (Cp) @ 150C (302F). Most 5w-30 and 10w-30 oils like Mobil 1 come in at about 3.1-3.2 Cp ...generally a 5w-40 or 10w-40 will have a HT/HS viscosity of around 4.0 Cp.

The question is if this is relevant to US driving speeds, as opposed to those in Europe?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40?
From: Kevin Alexander
Date: 20-Feb-01

TS, I notice your numbers on the heavier oils -vs- the lighter weight oils; what would it mean for a 0w-30 to have Cp of 3.5 per ASTM D4683? I'm not certain why they move on up to the 5w-40 but I have always been convinced that the polymer chains would be stretched too far under heat and stress due to the increase in V.I. improvers to make the 5w oils perform like the 40w; obviously the germans have some needs and knowledge we may not have? Maybe it's the difference in normal temps there as compared to here?

bhdfield, I think German engineers are very intelligent and the point is taken very seriously about the speeds driven as a norm in Europe -vs- here in the states. "Every Porsche has come factory filled with a 5w-40 Synthetic Oil since August 1992" per Bruce Anderson, writer for Porsche Panorama, August 1993. kevina@nordam.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40?
From:
Date: 21-Feb-01

does the VW, have a combined engine and gearbox fluid? could be the pol/r chains are being chopped up?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Why does VW/Audi specify 5w-40?
From: Rich Eichelberger
Date: 22-Feb-01

Interestingly enough, I was looking at the Amsoil Tech Data Sheets today, and noticed that for the 5W-30 they claim a minimum of 3.5cP @ 150C. For the 10W-40, they claim 3.93cP @ 150C.

Also, from spending some time reading on a VW TDI forum, the VW crowd is a very knowledgable group that are willing to run oil analysis and make the extra effort to try and protect their vehicles. Very impressive group of car owners.

Rich

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Old 02-22-2001, 04:29 PM   #10
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Rich ~~ I would venture to say that it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison in that thread. First off, does this guy know the specifications for the oils before testing? Just because one TBN result is lower than another doesn't mean much. Also, he's running the Mobil 1 during the winter, which is most likely going to lead to higher pollutants in the oil.

I stand by what I said, stay away from wide-spread conventional based oils, especially on high performance cars. That's all I said.

<small>And for the Castrol fanboys, all I can say is, [nelson_mode]Ha Ha [/nelson_mode].</small>

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Old 02-22-2001, 05:38 PM   #11
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Sorry Steve. I didn't mean to post that as any kind of slam towards Mobil 1. I was mainly interested in the discussion of the HTHS numbers, and maybe how it relates to how well oil holds up. Do the Europeans have higher standards/requirements for their oil? From what I've heard, the API is going to be upgrading the oil ratings in the not-too-distant future. I guess the EPA is behind the trend to more stringent requirements for emmissions, which in turn is driving the need for better oil and also higher drain intervals (I personally haven't read any articles on this, so my facts may be a little fuzzy- feel free to correct/slam me as needed). Is it true that the Europeans already recommend a 10k-15k mile oil change interval? From what I understand, this will be the normal recommendation in the US as well.

Rich
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Old 02-22-2001, 07:25 PM   #12
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OK, all acronymns and brand discussions aside, we've established that Porsche and VW/Audi recommend 5w40 synthetic, and a Mobil engineer says anything less that 40 weight won't cut it. The message I'm getting here is that when running fast and hot, 40 weight is darn near essential.

So, what is so special about Subarus that we can get away with 30 weight oil? Am I missing something here?

I have no problem changing grades with the seasons. I'm leaning towards 0w30 in the Winter and 5w40 or 10w40 in the Summer. Both full synthetic of course.
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Old 02-22-2001, 10:42 PM   #13
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I believe if you READ what I said, I'm using a Subaru (purolator) filter now. And yes, I use petrolium based oil. If 100 years of history shows that petrolium based oils work fine isn't good enough for you, well that's too bad. My oil change intervals vary with the driving. If I take a road trip and put 3400 miles on the car, mostly cruising at freeway speeds, I'll do a 5k interval. When I'm cruising around town, rodding the snot out of it, I'll drop it to around 3k. In 8 year I never once had a Fram filter fail me, but I like the Purolator better. It fills up faster and it's cheaper. Maybe if my car required a tuneup every few thousand miles I'd spend the cash for synthetic oil, but I just don't think there is enough payback to warrant the expense.

How many Subarus are out there with 200,000 miles or more on the clock? How many of those had synthetic oil put in them? How many miles do you think I'll put on my car in the next five years? Probably not over 150k. I think I'll be OK with Castol. I had a friend who burned Flag in his Mazda pickup. He figured why shell out for a name brand oil when it only lasts a couple hundred miles? I think the only reason he did an oil "change" is so he could swap out the filter.
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Old 02-23-2001, 04:31 AM   #14
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I don't think your argument about petroleum-based oils holds up. It's kind of like saying in the early 40's "Well, the abacus is a proven design and 1000's of years of use shows it works just fine". If somebody believed that, I wouldn't be here typing on this fancy number cruncher. Likewise, if in the early 1900's somebody figured that nothing could possibly be improved with respect to natural rubber, we'd all have terrible tire life and/or several times less grip than we do. In many facets of life, synthetic materials are orders of magnitude better in every respect to their natural counterpart. They may or may not be more expensive, but they are definitely better.
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Old 02-23-2001, 05:28 AM   #15
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Rich ~~ I didn't think you were slamming anything. Just pointing out some holes I see in that guy's logic.

And yes, oils will soon be meeting the "new" GF-3 requirements (although there is no law that says they HAVE to). Also, there is a change coming towards the end of this year (at least that's the RUMOR ).

Definitely something to be said for shear strength (or resistance), and tensile strength. I can see how a 40 weight oil is going to help at 150C, as compared to a 30 weight oil. BUT, look at that temperature! Who has seen an oil temperature that high on their Impreza, or Volkswagen? Holy cow.

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Old 02-23-2001, 07:44 AM   #16
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"..For best high temperature performance you need an oil which has a High Temperatre High Shear (HTHS) rating of 3.5 minimum..."
FYI, Castrol Syntec 10W30 has an HTHS of 3.5.
Dennis
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Old 02-23-2001, 07:50 AM   #17
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Just because cars used petroleum based oils for years means nothing. First of all, all those old American V8's of 20 -30 years ago didn't have anything like the close tolerances of today's high performance engines, so the oil was not stressed nearly so much. They did not rev as high, did not get as hot. Also, most old motor simply did not last as long on average as today's, so long term reliability is not as much as a concern. Although I know that there is the odd old motot out there with 200K on them, how many of those have not had engine work or don't bow smoke? Very few. 20 Years ago, 100K was considered to be a lot more than it is today. Therefore, if we want to realistically think about hitting 200k in our cars today, they need the best lubrication and cooling when they are at 20-30K miles.

Now, I am not saying that the use of petroleum based oils kills engines, just that a better synthetic will give you a better change of getting better ecomomy and longer life out of the motor.

[This message has been edited by jlyttle (edited February 23, 2001).]
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Old 02-23-2001, 03:12 PM   #18
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I think maybe there are no holes in my arguement. How about that?
How many five and ten year old cars are driving around just fine on petrolium oils? Millions. I am not going to keep my RS for more than five years. I get bored with cars, and so I don't like driving them for years upon years. That said, I'll probably put 150,000 miles on it. That's roughly 50 oil changes. At about $15 more per oil change that's a $750 difference. If I'm burning a little oil at 150,000 miles, so be it. It won't be my problem for long. As I said, I can't justify the extra price. If my RS was really a performance vehicle, I'd think about it. But really it's not. It's got a generic flat four that is used in mid sized wagons and small sport-utes. Not exactly a high performance engine.
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Old 02-23-2001, 08:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
BUT, look at that temperature! Who has seen an oil temperature that high on their Impreza, or Volkswagen? Holy cow.
Is it possible that there are places in the engine where the oil can get this hot? I don't have any idea what our oil temperature normally runs. I'm getting kinda itchy to install an oil temp guage (among others) just so I can know the operating ranges.

Rich

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Old 02-23-2001, 09:44 PM   #20
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Generally, oil temp is about 10 celcius higher than water. We run Mobil 15w-50 , and on a couple of hot summer events, oil temp peaked at 114 celcius, and water was about 105 celcius. Mind you, this is full rally situation on a 400+hp engine, with a 25-row external air-to-air oil cooler. The stock engines 2.0, 2.2, 2.5, come stock with water cooled oil adapter which is more than adaquate for regualar use with frequent auto-x's and hard abuse.

Rich
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Old 02-23-2001, 11:13 PM   #21
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Um, yeah. If I were getting 400 hp from my engine I'd be the first to spend five bucks a quart for oil.
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Old 02-24-2001, 06:02 PM   #22
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Hey horatio, why are you so angry?

I don't understand why people get upset when others don't agree with them. Isn't that the purpose of the board? Open debate and exchange of ideas? Why the "thats my opinion and if you dont agree you are a retard" attitude? I am a little slow. Explain it to me.

Anyway, you seem to do a lot of justification and rationalization for someone who's argument has no holes in it. You state that petroleum based oils are just as good as synthetic (despite scientific facts that state otherwise), and go on to back that statement up with, "I won't have my car when it starts to have problems anyway." What are we supposed to do with that statement? If you want to debate, back it up with facts, otherwise you are just making noise.

By the way, I think that we all realize that we don't own F1 engines, but that does not mean don't want to afford our engines the best treatment possible.

[This message has been edited by jlyttle (edited February 24, 2001).]
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Old 02-26-2001, 12:36 AM   #23
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Question

All of this talk is interesting. I just have one question. Has anyone here had there Subaru engine fail because of the oil brand and/or type that they used? If so, what brand was it and was it synthetic or natural? Thanks!

If not, there's no reason to fuss.
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