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Old 02-20-2001, 01:11 PM   #1
Jon Bogert
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If anything, I feel they really started to pull better after about 1000 miles (and a valve adjustment, of course). Part of that could be the engine breaking in--I installed them at about 5,000 miles.

If you want to pull hard past 90, get a turbo. You can't expect 20HP to "throw you back in your seat."
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Old 02-20-2001, 01:27 PM   #2
ColinL
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Unless you have instrumented test numbers to back up your observations, I think you're just becoming used to the change. Go test drive a stock 2.5RS and then come back to your car, observe the difference.

Now as to whether my car is not pulling as hard-- no, I don't think it quite is. Do you see any leaks?

I'm weeping oil from a variety of places and am loosing a little coolant but not much, although I can smell it burning after a hard drive. I am now debating whether to give it another go myself or since I obviously have screwed something up, or give it to a shop. I haven't had time to really inspect it closely and disassemble anything, but it looks like I'm leaking from both cam o-rings (RH is worse), RH valve cover and since I'm loosing a little coolant, obviously the head gaskets are suspect.

I am loosing a total of maybe 1 quart every 3000 miles, hardly bad but it's enough that my front right lower strut, hub & brake assy have a fine coat of oil and grime, plus a cute puddle in the garage. I've lost maybe 8oz of coolant over the same time.

The odd thing is that it runs quite well, too well to be a blown head gasket. It doesn't run the least bit hot either, even after prolonged idling.

Sorry to hijack your topic! If anyone has suggestions or ideas, fire away. I'll try and get some pics up.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:07 PM   #3
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aren't you supposed to go back in and reset the valve lash after a certain number of miles? Could this be the cause of the loss of power?
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:24 PM   #4
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I am not leaking from anywhere. Oil and coolant are fine. No camshaft cap leaks, no visible leaks from camshaft oil seals, no problems with rear camshaft plugs either. Only thing out of place is the sound the valves are now making (or not making as the case may be).

I may be just getting used to the changes, but it just seems like there isn't as much there as before. My buddy just recently got his MY01 2.5RS, which is sort of why this came up. Maybe its just the extra torque because of the lack of intake and exhaust, but his car feels like it pulls more mid tach. Granted I haven't driven it yet and things always feel different from the drivers seat. Maybe I will just keep quiet until I have reset my valves and driven a stock 2.5RS. I know stock vs cammed, the cammed car will have a slightly reinforced midrange and will just walk away in the upper revs.

Honestly, my car did push me back into the seat. Granted, its not like a turbo and not like that '90 civic hb with the b16a (civic si motor) I rode in this weekend, but it still was there. It was a really cool feeling. Perhaps I am just paranoid about me doing the install. I did everything by the number, so I think I am ok there. /me crosses fingers hoping its just the loose valves.

ColinL: Sorry to hear you have things going wrong. On the install, I did not have any burning oil or coolant (removal of heads probably). I did not replace my camshaft oil seals, but they were not damaged during the install. Your head gaskets may be fine, but perhaps you just didn't get them set properly. Did you replace your camshaft oil seals or did you reuse the existing ones? My only concern for oil leakage was the camshaft cap, but they seem ok. Hope you get things sorted. I know that I feel very confident to do another camshaft install, so I am sure you should be ok tearing into it again. I am going to do a homemade P&P this summer, but until then...

Strepto: yes, the valve lash should be set (according to Trey) at 3000 miles. ColinL set his right after the break in period. It appears that Jon Bogert had his reset at 1000 miles. I think I will go ahead and reset mine after about 600 miles.

Anybody think that valve lash could change power delivery dramatically?

...enough rambling...

-Jon
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:33 PM   #5
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I did use new camshaft o-ring seals. I would likewise agree that my situation was caused by the additional teardown, but like I said besides the coolant smell I can't cleanly say this is a head gasket issue.

How many miles are on your car? If near 30,000 like mine, it might need a new fuel filter. It could need one sooner if your local gas has high sulfur content, or even simple dirt.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Anybody think that valve lash could change power delivery dramatically?
No. Way too tight could be a bigger problem than slightly too loose though.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:39 PM   #7
Jon Bogert
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I had the valves adjusted when they got really noisy. I figured if they were making that much noise, it was time.
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Old 02-20-2001, 02:40 PM   #8
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My car has 15600 miles, 6 autocrosses, 10000 miles with iSR intake, 6000 miles with exhaust, 600 miles with the camshafts, and countless hard, tire screeching corners.

Just thought of something else, though most likely unprobable: timing belt could have jumped a tooth. Guess I also need to check timing when I set valve lash. Though I don't think the car would be running very well with the timing out of whack. Oh, and check my NGK plugs for burn characteristics.
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Old 02-20-2001, 03:02 PM   #9
bill harvey
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colin people with brain tumors sometime smell of hear things that aren't there. perhaps that the antifreeze smell
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Old 02-20-2001, 03:14 PM   #10
ColinL
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Bill, don't give my wife false hope like that! She will live like a queen after I'm gone... after my dad is gone too.

Seriously though, others can smell it too. Smells like antifreeze to me, but maybe I am insane since the only thing I can see leaking is oil!
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Old 02-20-2001, 03:45 PM   #11
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...I think Colin is right...about getting use to the power. I really don't remember how many miles since my heads , cams an throttle body work , but my car pulls very hard actually in 5th gear after 95 it gets really fast so now I need to extend my RPM's a little bit to take advantage of my power.

Remember also that I have a different intake with Ram air(improved one full second on the 1/4 mile on Subpreza's almost stock RS, 15.3 only w/ my intake and muffler,no ram air))
JC torque chip?Tech II?Haltech?

Any suggestions?

Also larger injectors...

Andres
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Old 02-21-2001, 12:51 AM   #12
stimpy
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Well I am up to about 500 miles now with my new cams and it seems that its not pulling nearly as hard as it did when they were first installed. I ran a 16min break in at 2k rpms, then allowed the car to cool while resetting the ECU. During the test runs it pulled hard. It now feels like its accelerating like it did previously, just breathing a little more freely in the upper revs. It still runs great, gas mileage is fine, but I also no longer hear any valve ticking (was present right after install). Idle is louder, but no clicking. It also doesn't seem to want to rev as quickly.

Did any of you guys notice a loss of power during the first 3k miles? Was the power returned after the valve tolerances were reset? Are the valves going to be very far off when I set them again? (thinking of doing it this weekend) I may be crazy, but it just doesn't seem like it has as much oomph as before; no more throwing you back into the seat as you gradually dip into 3rd. Heck, the car falls flat on its face at about 90mph. It requires full throttle to push it up to 100mph and I don't think it was that bad even when it was stock.

Thanks for the help.

-Jon

PS: No CE light, no sooty pipe, nothing out of the ordinary...cept maybe a slightly dirty air filter.
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Old 02-21-2001, 09:49 AM   #13
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I am very confident that my iSR intake is hampering my high-rev performance, but the torque down low is good. I distinctly remember being able to pull well above 90mph, so your statement helps AndresRS01.

As for more rpms, I am sure your car can take it now. Might I suggest going the Haltech route since Trey is right there to help you get it setup. I think Trey stated that the mods on your car should allow you to take about 7k redline. I'm not for sure on that, but I know it can take more than 6250. I have also heard good things on the JC Torque Chip II, but it will not allow manipulation of the revlimiter. Do you think your car is really at the end of the fuel systems capabilities? Maybe just a simple fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator is all you need.

-Jon
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Old 02-21-2001, 10:03 AM   #14
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Could it have to do with the ECU detect pings and retard the timing for you? Try reset your ECU and see if it gains any power.
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Old 02-21-2001, 10:09 AM   #15
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I don't have any noticable pinging or anything, but its worth a shot.

Thanks.

-Jon
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Old 02-21-2001, 10:54 AM   #16
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On a 2.5L SOHC valve float sets in around 7100rpm. It might be wise to stay more around 6800.

Stimpy, if an ECU reset does bring about significant power gains then you either need more octane or more fuel. Right after a reset I get absolutely horrible gas mileage, which indicates to me the ECU is dumping a lot of fuel while it's relearning the environment.
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Old 02-22-2001, 12:06 AM   #17
stimpy
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Got it ColinL, I will try resetting tonight once I am off work.

Isn't the valve float corrected with the upraded springs with the new heads? Or perhaps are those heads just ported and polished, then stock valves and springs are returned? I know Trey has an option for turbo valve springs and valves, but I am not sure what he does with stage 1 heads.
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Old 02-22-2001, 03:55 PM   #18
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If your car falls flat at 90 like you said then I can definately say you've lost some serious power. I have exhaust/intake, but that said, you're car should still have more power than mine.

- Steve
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:17 PM   #19
ColinL
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what kind of plugs did you say you had again? what heat range-- stock 00-01? (1 step colder than stock 98-99)

have you looked at the plugs yet?
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Old 02-22-2001, 04:23 PM   #20
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I replaced my stock champions with NGK BKR6E-11 plugs. Recommended spec by NGK. They were gapped at .044 and looked great (clean burn) just before the cams were done. I have not pulled the plugs since, but I will be doing that this weekend when I do valves and check my timing. I spose I could check them tonight for the heck of it.

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Old 02-23-2001, 12:26 AM   #21
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Well the ECU reset helped some, but it still doesn't seem all powerful again. I guess its down to resetting valves before I decide its just me. I will be doing the valve lash this weekend.

I think I might try the knock sensor mod as well, because I am curious about something else the car is doing. It seems like it hiccups sometimes.

-Jon
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Old 02-23-2001, 08:02 AM   #22
ColinL
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Yep, an NGK 6 is stock for a 00-01. If all looks fine try to get some of Trey's time to ask him about other 00-01s with the cams. A MAP sensor can't correct for volumetric efficiency changes like a MAF can, so I don't know if "hiccups" are normal.
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Old 02-23-2001, 09:10 AM   #23
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The hiccups actually existing before the cams were installed. I wanted to check out the problem because it is a little annoying.

I test drove my buddies MY01 last night and my car definitely pulls better than his. It is an illusion on my part, since I was not in control of his car previously. My car still doesn't have the pull it used to. I didn't get a chance to do plugs last night because it was raining. Everything is on hold til this weekend.

-Jon
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Old 02-23-2001, 09:55 AM   #24
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If your valves are not making noise the lash may be set too tight. Loose valves (too much lash) will tick more. If the lash is really low (0 lash or less), there is a possibility that your valves are not fully closing, this will lower compression and cause a power loss, but this is an extreme case. Still no valve noise would indicate not enough lash.
Tim
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Old 02-23-2001, 10:00 AM   #25
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Thanks boxerman, I was wondering about that exactly. My car isn't ticking like it used to, but the valves are still noisy. That said, I will be redoing the valves this weekend. When I adjusted them initially, I tightened the lash down to where the feeler guage was really tight to push and pull, but still moved (ie: had lost of resistance). Is that correct? Or perhaps, should they be set with the valve tappet right down on the feeler guage, but not limiting the movement in any way?
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