Another ST-X/S Question: Engines

Kostamojen · 01-10-2003, 04:42 AM

One of these days, I am going to put a EJ25 into my car... When that happens, I thought I would be forced into SM. However, I was reading through the rules and noticed a couple things:
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rule...t_touring.html

Quote:

A. Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if:
(1) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken,
(2) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes)
The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined, or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions, or transaxles must be done as a complete unit as available from the factory, including those items required by emissions regulations for a particular configuration. Example: the Neon throttle body used on automatic transmission cars cannot be used on a manual transmission car. Component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in SportsCar magazine.

From what I can tell, if I put a EJ25 in that is stock specs internally as a whole unit (presumable including wireing harness/ecu) that it would be legal... ???

This also includes trannys, and rear LSD's for my car since I dont have one. So, how about a STI tranny/rear diff matted to the EJ25? Legal? Makes me wonder...

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KC · 01-10-2003, 07:53 AM

Nope can't do it.

A 1.8L Subaru is in FSP (Impreza NOC) whereas the 2.2 and the 2.5 are in DSP and in order to swap the engines for STS/X, they'd have to be 1) in the same class and 2) on the same line.

I don't have a rulebook handy, so I can't even tell if the 2.2 and the 2.5 are on the same line. Now that would be interesting if they are. 2.2L with a 2.5 and be totally legal (I would think you'd have to do the rear brake converson, abs, etc along with it, but I'm not sure)

--kC

Kostamojen · 01-10-2003, 08:29 PM

The problem is that "class" isnt indicated by the rules... Its talking about years and models, which is why I brought this up.

KC · 01-10-2003, 11:55 PM

What do you mean? We follow the Street Prepared rules for UD/BD.

Those rules state, for it to be a legal UD/BD, the cars have to be on the same line (actual text in the book, not model lines) in the Rule book... and to be on the same line, they need to be in the same class 1st. There are some cars in SP that are from the same manufacturer, but they're on different lines in the same class.

See what I'm saying? Since the 2.5RS is in DSP and the 1.8 is in FSP, the swap is not legal for STS/X. Not only because they're in different classes, but because they're not even on the same line...

SM, yes, it's legal, but not STS/X.

Gotta find my rulebook....

Here's the rule...
Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if
(a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken,
(b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes).
The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in SportsCar magazine.

--kC

Kostamojen · 01-11-2003, 01:49 AM

Ok, I see... But does Street touring align with Prepared classes or Stock classes? Because then the 2.2 would be in HS with the 1.8...

KC · 01-11-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kostamojen
Ok, I see... But does Street touring align with Prepared classes or Stock classes? Because then the 2.2 would be in HS with the 1.8...

STS/X has nothing to do with Prepared, nor does it use any of its rules.

And in Stock, UD/DB is not available.

So we have to use the SP rule the way it is written. Gonna see if I can find my rule book today and look at what the lines are.

--kC

dwx · 01-11-2003, 09:49 AM

http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2002/stprepc.html

Is that what you are looking for? He has the line setup on that HTML page. It does look like you could put a 2.5L engine in a 2.2L car for STS/STX. There was a local guy here with a 2.5 swap into his 1993L and it was a fast car, but he only rallyx's it, and then he S/C'd it. It'd make a killer SM car if he chose to autox. Anyways, I'm not sure they had a 2.2 engine in '93, maybe just 1995 on. But the 2.2L coupe in 95 was still almost 200 lbs lighter than the RS.

KC · 01-11-2003, 12:08 PM

Interesting development... unless someone can find a recent FasTrack, the Rulebook shows...

Page 173, DSP "2.5RS"
Page 177, FSP "Impreza, NOC"

There is no mention in the rule book, when comparing it to the Moutons site, about the 2.2 being in DSP and not FSP.

Which means, someone's gotta find it in a FasTrack dating back to Nov or Dev of 2001.

Anyhoo, the 1.8 is definitely in FSP.

--kC

Kostamojen · 01-12-2003, 01:03 AM

Screw it!!!

Someone find me a sponsor so just go straight to SM!

(My 2200lbs EJ25 L will RULE ALL! NOW GIVE ME $$$$)

KC · 01-12-2003, 08:42 AM

What's your paypal acct? I'll happily send a dollar.

Kostamojen · 01-13-2003, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC
What's your paypal acct? I'll happily send a dollar.

12345

Scoobyslack1 · 01-13-2003, 10:57 AM

you guys can send me a dollar for my SM project too if you would like...

or you can send me any GT25 turbos you might not need

Alan
Team ARG!

dwx · 01-13-2003, 12:33 PM

Me three!

Phil

Scoobyslack1 · 01-13-2003, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kostamojen
(My 2200lbs EJ25 L will RULE ALL! NOW GIVE ME $$$$)

how the hell are you going to get down to 2200lbs and stay legal?

dwx · 01-13-2003, 02:43 PM

Yeah the 95 Impreza L AWD weighed like 2550 lbs. While that's pretty light, it's a long way away from 2200 lbs.

Phil

Scoobyslack1 · 01-13-2003, 02:48 PM

really....my '96 Brighton 1.8L with NO extras (only AC) is 2660lbs stock
I thought the Brightons were the lightest

dwx · 01-13-2003, 02:55 PM

In 1996 all of them became heavier. According to the specs I have the 1996 Brighton is 2600 lbs, the 1993-1995L AWD coupe is 2555 lbs, so not much difference. The 1996 L Coupe is 2715 lbs.

Scoobyslack1 · 01-13-2003, 04:16 PM

that's OK, I think I have 45lbs on the average driver

Storm · 01-13-2003, 06:12 PM

I'm pretty sure the rulebook only says "Impreza 2.5" There is no "RS" designator for DSP. Then FSP says "Impreza, NOC".

Draw your own conclusions, but one could argue that any Impreza with a 2.2 or 2.5 would go into DSP where one with the smaller 1.8 would go to FSP (based on the absence of the RS designator).

Now, just how far would one have to go in order to transform an Impreza into a legal DSP 2.5 powered car? I would guess hood and bumpers at least. Probably power accessories inside such as locks and windows, unless they are specifically allowed to be removed.

FWIW, I'll be running a 'real' RS in DSP as my 1.8-2.5 project isn't ready and will likely jump right to SM with mo-powa....

Jay Storm
www.sourcemotorsports.com

KC · 01-13-2003, 06:47 PM

You're missing the point...

Engine swaps, or any other part for that matter can only be done on cars on the same line... under the update backdate rule.

Since the DSP listing is "Impreza 2.5" only... the only imprezas you can update/backdate are the imprezas with the 2.5L engine.

It's not where a previously 1.8L now with a 2.5L will go. That would be Modified or Street Mod.

Unless it's in a FasTrack, all other imprezas (2.2 and 1.8) would go into FSP. Now you CAN take a 2.2 and put it into a 1.8... THAT would be legal.

--kC

Kostamojen · 01-14-2003, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dwx
Yeah the 95 Impreza L AWD weighed like 2550 lbs. While that's pretty light, it's a long way away from 2200 lbs.

Phil

With SM rules, it wont be that hard

Airbags, seats, A/C, gutted interior, remove all sound deadening material, lightweight everything that I can including bumpers/CF body pannels/etc., Flywheel/pullies/driveshaft, Lightened engine components, lighter exhaust, cutting off exess metal parts like the jack holder and other things... I could get damn close to 2200lbs, perhaps even get forced to SM2

I have an old thread about this too.

And I would have to make some sort of special request so that I could stay in ST-X with an engine swap... I mean, I would at least like my car to be SOMEWHAT competitive... (I cant keep up with anyone competitivly in any class with this 1.8)

TheWRX · 01-14-2003, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kostamojen
gutted interior, remove all sound deadening material

Not allowed in SM! Weight reductions in SM are fairly limited. Rule 18.1.G lists body parts that can be replaced (hood, fenders). Otherwise, rule 18.1.H applies: "Except as noted by these rules and the referenced rules, vehicles must be as originally delivered...". I remember the thread that you're probably referring to. Most of the weight reductions that people discussed there aren't legal in SM.

KC · 01-14-2003, 08:40 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive one of the only interior pieces you can remove is the rear seat... right?

--kC

Scoobyslack1 · 01-14-2003, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive one of the only interior pieces you can remove is the rear seat... right?

--kC

correct

Kostamojen · 01-15-2003, 02:00 AM

Really? Ive seen gutted cars run in SM... Oh well...

Heres what I might actually do for ST-X though: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=301480

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01-10-2003, 07:53 AM	#2
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	Nope can't do it. A 1.8L Subaru is in FSP (Impreza NOC) whereas the 2.2 and the 2.5 are in DSP and in order to swap the engines for STS/X, they'd have to be 1) in the same class and 2) on the same line. I don't have a rulebook handy, so I can't even tell if the 2.2 and the 2.5 are on the same line. Now that would be interesting if they are. 2.2L with a 2.5 and be totally legal (I would think you'd have to do the rear brake converson, abs, etc along with it, but I'm not sure) --kC

01-10-2003, 08:29 PM	#3
Kostamojen Scooby Guru Member#: 2272 Join Date: Sep 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: haha XD Vehicle: 95 L AWD LIFTED!!! 1970 Subaru FF-1 Coupe	The problem is that "class" isnt indicated by the rules... Its talking about years and models, which is why I brought this up.

01-10-2003, 11:55 PM	#4
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	What do you mean? We follow the Street Prepared rules for UD/BD. Those rules state, for it to be a legal UD/BD, the cars have to be on the same line (actual text in the book, not model lines) in the Rule book... and to be on the same line, they need to be in the same class 1st. There are some cars in SP that are from the same manufacturer, but they're on different lines in the same class. See what I'm saying? Since the 2.5RS is in DSP and the 1.8 is in FSP, the swap is not legal for STS/X. Not only because they're in different classes, but because they're not even on the same line... SM, yes, it's legal, but not STS/X. Gotta find my rulebook.... Here's the rule... Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if (a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken, (b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes). The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in SportsCar magazine. --kC

01-11-2003, 01:49 AM	#5
Kostamojen Scooby Guru Member#: 2272 Join Date: Sep 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: haha XD Vehicle: 95 L AWD LIFTED!!! 1970 Subaru FF-1 Coupe	Ok, I see... But does Street touring align with Prepared classes or Stock classes? Because then the 2.2 would be in HS with the 1.8...

01-11-2003, 09:49 AM	#7
dwx Scooby Guru Member#: 8343 Join Date: Jul 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Atlanta, GA Vehicle: 2005 2012 Jeep 2013 DGM BRZ	http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2002/stprepc.html Is that what you are looking for? He has the line setup on that HTML page. It does look like you could put a 2.5L engine in a 2.2L car for STS/STX. There was a local guy here with a 2.5 swap into his 1993L and it was a fast car, but he only rallyx's it, and then he S/C'd it. It'd make a killer SM car if he chose to autox. Anyways, I'm not sure they had a 2.2 engine in '93, maybe just 1995 on. But the 2.2L coupe in 95 was still almost 200 lbs lighter than the RS.

01-11-2003, 12:08 PM	#8
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	Interesting development... unless someone can find a recent FasTrack, the Rulebook shows... Page 173, DSP "2.5RS" Page 177, FSP "Impreza, NOC" There is no mention in the rule book, when comparing it to the Moutons site, about the 2.2 being in DSP and not FSP. Which means, someone's gotta find it in a FasTrack dating back to Nov or Dev of 2001. Anyhoo, the 1.8 is definitely in FSP. --kC

01-12-2003, 01:03 AM	#9
Kostamojen Scooby Guru Member#: 2272 Join Date: Sep 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: haha XD Vehicle: 95 L AWD LIFTED!!! 1970 Subaru FF-1 Coupe	Screw it!!! Someone find me a sponsor so just go straight to SM! (My 2200lbs EJ25 L will RULE ALL! NOW GIVE ME $$$$)

01-12-2003, 08:42 AM	#10
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	What's your paypal acct? I'll happily send a dollar.

01-13-2003, 10:57 AM	#12
Scoobyslack1 Scooby Specialist Member#: 2780 Join Date: Oct 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: back in Chicago Vehicle: junk yards rule! Project FrankenSTien	you guys can send me a dollar for my SM project too if you would like... or you can send me any GT25 turbos you might not need Alan Team ARG!

01-13-2003, 12:33 PM	#13
dwx Scooby Guru Member#: 8343 Join Date: Jul 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Atlanta, GA Vehicle: 2005 2012 Jeep 2013 DGM BRZ	Me three! Phil

01-13-2003, 02:43 PM	#15
dwx Scooby Guru Member#: 8343 Join Date: Jul 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Atlanta, GA Vehicle: 2005 2012 Jeep 2013 DGM BRZ	Yeah the 95 Impreza L AWD weighed like 2550 lbs. While that's pretty light, it's a long way away from 2200 lbs. Phil

01-13-2003, 02:48 PM	#16
Scoobyslack1 Scooby Specialist Member#: 2780 Join Date: Oct 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: back in Chicago Vehicle: junk yards rule! Project FrankenSTien	really....my '96 Brighton 1.8L with NO extras (only AC) is 2660lbs stock I thought the Brightons were the lightest

01-13-2003, 02:55 PM	#17
dwx Scooby Guru Member#: 8343 Join Date: Jul 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Atlanta, GA Vehicle: 2005 2012 Jeep 2013 DGM BRZ	In 1996 all of them became heavier. According to the specs I have the 1996 Brighton is 2600 lbs, the 1993-1995L AWD coupe is 2555 lbs, so not much difference. The 1996 L Coupe is 2715 lbs.

01-13-2003, 04:16 PM	#18
Scoobyslack1 Scooby Specialist Member#: 2780 Join Date: Oct 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: back in Chicago Vehicle: junk yards rule! Project FrankenSTien	that's OK, I think I have 45lbs on the average driver

01-13-2003, 06:12 PM	#19
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: SAUL'S Motorsports Vehicle: 96L Most Over- Developed Beater	I'm pretty sure the rulebook only says "Impreza 2.5" There is no "RS" designator for DSP. Then FSP says "Impreza, NOC". Draw your own conclusions, but one could argue that any Impreza with a 2.2 or 2.5 would go into DSP where one with the smaller 1.8 would go to FSP (based on the absence of the RS designator). Now, just how far would one have to go in order to transform an Impreza into a legal DSP 2.5 powered car? I would guess hood and bumpers at least. Probably power accessories inside such as locks and windows, unless they are specifically allowed to be removed. FWIW, I'll be running a 'real' RS in DSP as my 1.8-2.5 project isn't ready and will likely jump right to SM with mo-powa.... Jay Storm www.sourcemotorsports.com

01-13-2003, 06:47 PM	#20
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	You're missing the point... Engine swaps, or any other part for that matter can only be done on cars on the same line... under the update backdate rule. Since the DSP listing is "Impreza 2.5" only... the only imprezas you can update/backdate are the imprezas with the 2.5L engine. It's not where a previously 1.8L now with a 2.5L will go. That would be Modified or Street Mod. Unless it's in a FasTrack, all other imprezas (2.2 and 1.8) would go into FSP. Now you CAN take a 2.2 and put it into a 1.8... THAT would be legal. --kC

01-14-2003, 08:40 AM	#23
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive one of the only interior pieces you can remove is the rear seat... right? --kC

01-15-2003, 02:00 AM	#25
Kostamojen Scooby Guru Member#: 2272 Join Date: Sep 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: haha XD Vehicle: 95 L AWD LIFTED!!! 1970 Subaru FF-1 Coupe	Really? Ive seen gutted cars run in SM... Oh well... Heres what I might actually do for ST-X though: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=301480