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Old 01-10-2003, 04:42 AM   #1
Kostamojen
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Question Another ST-X/S Question: Engines

One of these days, I am going to put a EJ25 into my car... When that happens, I thought I would be forced into SM. However, I was reading through the rules and noticed a couple things:
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rule...t_touring.html

Quote:
A. Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if:
(1) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken,
(2) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes)
The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined, or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions, or transaxles must be done as a complete unit as available from the factory, including those items required by emissions regulations for a particular configuration. Example: the Neon throttle body used on automatic transmission cars cannot be used on a manual transmission car. Component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in SportsCar magazine.
From what I can tell, if I put a EJ25 in that is stock specs internally as a whole unit (presumable including wireing harness/ecu) that it would be legal... ???

This also includes trannys, and rear LSD's for my car since I dont have one. So, how about a STI tranny/rear diff matted to the EJ25? Legal? Makes me wonder...
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Old 01-10-2003, 07:53 AM   #2
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Nope can't do it.

A 1.8L Subaru is in FSP (Impreza NOC) whereas the 2.2 and the 2.5 are in DSP and in order to swap the engines for STS/X, they'd have to be 1) in the same class and 2) on the same line.

I don't have a rulebook handy, so I can't even tell if the 2.2 and the 2.5 are on the same line. Now that would be interesting if they are. 2.2L with a 2.5 and be totally legal (I would think you'd have to do the rear brake converson, abs, etc along with it, but I'm not sure)

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Old 01-10-2003, 08:29 PM   #3
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The problem is that "class" isnt indicated by the rules... Its talking about years and models, which is why I brought this up.
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Old 01-10-2003, 11:55 PM   #4
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What do you mean? We follow the Street Prepared rules for UD/BD.

Those rules state, for it to be a legal UD/BD, the cars have to be on the same line (actual text in the book, not model lines) in the Rule book... and to be on the same line, they need to be in the same class 1st. There are some cars in SP that are from the same manufacturer, but they're on different lines in the same class.

See what I'm saying? Since the 2.5RS is in DSP and the 1.8 is in FSP, the swap is not legal for STS/X. Not only because they're in different classes, but because they're not even on the same line...

SM, yes, it's legal, but not STS/X.

Gotta find my rulebook....

Here's the rule...
Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if
(a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken,
(b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared Classes).
The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published in SportsCar magazine.


--kC
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Old 01-11-2003, 01:49 AM   #5
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Ok, I see... But does Street touring align with Prepared classes or Stock classes? Because then the 2.2 would be in HS with the 1.8...
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kostamojen
Ok, I see... But does Street touring align with Prepared classes or Stock classes? Because then the 2.2 would be in HS with the 1.8...
STS/X has nothing to do with Prepared, nor does it use any of its rules.

And in Stock, UD/DB is not available.

So we have to use the SP rule the way it is written. Gonna see if I can find my rule book today and look at what the lines are.

--kC
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:49 AM   #7
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http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2002/stprepc.html

Is that what you are looking for? He has the line setup on that HTML page. It does look like you could put a 2.5L engine in a 2.2L car for STS/STX. There was a local guy here with a 2.5 swap into his 1993L and it was a fast car, but he only rallyx's it, and then he S/C'd it. It'd make a killer SM car if he chose to autox. Anyways, I'm not sure they had a 2.2 engine in '93, maybe just 1995 on. But the 2.2L coupe in 95 was still almost 200 lbs lighter than the RS.
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Old 01-11-2003, 12:08 PM   #8
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Interesting development... unless someone can find a recent FasTrack, the Rulebook shows...

Page 173, DSP "2.5RS"
Page 177, FSP "Impreza, NOC"

There is no mention in the rule book, when comparing it to the Moutons site, about the 2.2 being in DSP and not FSP.

Which means, someone's gotta find it in a FasTrack dating back to Nov or Dev of 2001.

Anyhoo, the 1.8 is definitely in FSP.

--kC
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Old 01-12-2003, 01:03 AM   #9
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Screw it!!!

Someone find me a sponsor so just go straight to SM!



(My 2200lbs EJ25 L will RULE ALL! NOW GIVE ME $$$$)
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Old 01-12-2003, 08:42 AM   #10
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What's your paypal acct? I'll happily send a dollar.
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Old 01-13-2003, 02:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC
What's your paypal acct? I'll happily send a dollar.
12345

Last edited by Kostamojen; 02-02-2009 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 01-13-2003, 10:57 AM   #12
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you guys can send me a dollar for my SM project too if you would like...
or you can send me any GT25 turbos you might not need


Alan
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Old 01-13-2003, 12:33 PM   #13
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Me three!

Phil
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Old 01-13-2003, 12:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kostamojen
(My 2200lbs EJ25 L will RULE ALL! NOW GIVE ME $$$$)
how the hell are you going to get down to 2200lbs and stay legal?
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Old 01-13-2003, 02:43 PM   #15
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Yeah the 95 Impreza L AWD weighed like 2550 lbs. While that's pretty light, it's a long way away from 2200 lbs.

Phil
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Old 01-13-2003, 02:48 PM   #16
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really....my '96 Brighton 1.8L with NO extras (only AC) is 2660lbs stock
I thought the Brightons were the lightest
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Old 01-13-2003, 02:55 PM   #17
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In 1996 all of them became heavier. According to the specs I have the 1996 Brighton is 2600 lbs, the 1993-1995L AWD coupe is 2555 lbs, so not much difference. The 1996 L Coupe is 2715 lbs.
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Old 01-13-2003, 04:16 PM   #18
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that's OK, I think I have 45lbs on the average driver
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Old 01-13-2003, 06:12 PM   #19
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I'm pretty sure the rulebook only says "Impreza 2.5" There is no "RS" designator for DSP. Then FSP says "Impreza, NOC".

Draw your own conclusions, but one could argue that any Impreza with a 2.2 or 2.5 would go into DSP where one with the smaller 1.8 would go to FSP (based on the absence of the RS designator).

Now, just how far would one have to go in order to transform an Impreza into a legal DSP 2.5 powered car? I would guess hood and bumpers at least. Probably power accessories inside such as locks and windows, unless they are specifically allowed to be removed.

FWIW, I'll be running a 'real' RS in DSP as my 1.8-2.5 project isn't ready and will likely jump right to SM with mo-powa....

Jay Storm
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Old 01-13-2003, 06:47 PM   #20
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You're missing the point...

Engine swaps, or any other part for that matter can only be done on cars on the same line... under the update backdate rule.

Since the DSP listing is "Impreza 2.5" only... the only imprezas you can update/backdate are the imprezas with the 2.5L engine.

It's not where a previously 1.8L now with a 2.5L will go. That would be Modified or Street Mod.

Unless it's in a FasTrack, all other imprezas (2.2 and 1.8) would go into FSP. Now you CAN take a 2.2 and put it into a 1.8... THAT would be legal.

--kC
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Old 01-14-2003, 04:02 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by dwx
Yeah the 95 Impreza L AWD weighed like 2550 lbs. While that's pretty light, it's a long way away from 2200 lbs.

Phil
With SM rules, it wont be that hard

Airbags, seats, A/C, gutted interior, remove all sound deadening material, lightweight everything that I can including bumpers/CF body pannels/etc., Flywheel/pullies/driveshaft, Lightened engine components, lighter exhaust, cutting off exess metal parts like the jack holder and other things... I could get damn close to 2200lbs, perhaps even get forced to SM2 I have an old thread about this too.

And I would have to make some sort of special request so that I could stay in ST-X with an engine swap... I mean, I would at least like my car to be SOMEWHAT competitive... (I cant keep up with anyone competitivly in any class with this 1.8)
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Old 01-14-2003, 08:11 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kostamojen
gutted interior, remove all sound deadening material
Not allowed in SM! Weight reductions in SM are fairly limited. Rule 18.1.G lists body parts that can be replaced (hood, fenders). Otherwise, rule 18.1.H applies: "Except as noted by these rules and the referenced rules, vehicles must be as originally delivered...". I remember the thread that you're probably referring to. Most of the weight reductions that people discussed there aren't legal in SM.
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Old 01-14-2003, 08:40 AM   #23
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive one of the only interior pieces you can remove is the rear seat... right?

--kC
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Old 01-14-2003, 10:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive one of the only interior pieces you can remove is the rear seat... right?

--kC
correct
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Old 01-15-2003, 02:00 AM   #25
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Really? Ive seen gutted cars run in SM... Oh well...

Heres what I might actually do for ST-X though: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=301480
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