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Old 04-26-2001, 06:37 PM   #1
Derres Catalano
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Post Why stay N/A when you can get a WRX engine for $2700?

Shameless advertisement.
Check the personal classifieds. It's true.


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Old 04-26-2001, 08:44 PM   #2
ColinL
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Talking

I'll be shameless too!

Why not?

1. The transmission is probably no stronger than an RS box. The Subaru 5MT has enjoyed a long and lasting reputation for its lack of durability. STi hardened gearsets help, but those can go in a domestic case.

2. version 2 engines like that one use hydraulic lifters and thus are not great at high rpm.

3. cylinder head design has improved dramatically... I have full confidence that the stock SOHC EJ25 head flows more than the MY95 EJ20 head.

4. how much will it cost to have it installed?

5. how much will the stock turbo flow?

and last but not least, how laggy will it be? naturally aspirated = instant throttle response.

you asked, I answered.
btw, for $2700 I'd turbocharge an EJ25. the extras you'll need will be less than the labor to install an EJ20.
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:42 AM   #3
tmat3
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This month's SCC claims that you're better off putting a turbo on EJ25 than actually getting a WRX engine and install it on the RS (from financial point of view).
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Old 04-27-2001, 03:07 AM   #4
Keiho
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One word. AndresRS01 (I HOPE that's his SN).

mid 14s NA.
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:10 PM   #5
Derres Catalano
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Hmmmm. Let's see ColinL....
Turbo the 2.5 RS
turbo kit- $3000
clutch - $500
trans rebuild w/ hardened gearset - $2000
new fuel injectors - $500
eventuall need for fully programmable ECU - $2000

This is what it will take to get a reliable system going. No labor included. If you think it will be less you are fooling yourself. Most people are not honest woth themselves when they get all excited about the idea of having a turbo.

Fact is, you are gonna be up near $10K. Ask the veterans in the I-club. they can attest to this. Actually, do a search for Shiv's latest build.
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:13 PM   #6
Thug
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He's pretty right. I think I have chosen to go the WRX motor route myself.
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:24 PM   #7
scoobiejosh
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If you think it will be much better to do the swap, go for it. You get what you pay for. For the WRX swap figure on junking the WRX ECU. Its tuned for better gas than we get, so the timming is to agressive. Or figure in the price of octane booster in every tank.
Oh and figure on a upgraded fuel pump and pressure regulator.
Whoops, custom exhaust (or imported WRX exhaust).
Wait a minuete, does it come with the WRX axles. Darn.
Oh man I have the wrong front sub frame.
Crap, a sensor is missing.
Hey has anyone seen a bolt that looks like this?
I blew a piston, and I have to wait till I can get one shipped from overseas.
I could go on but I think you get the point. If you really look at the swap it is a lot more than most figure.

Josh

[This message has been edited by scoobiejosh (edited April 27, 2001).]
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:31 PM   #8
garface
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How about the new WRX from America. Do you think that would be worth it?
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:33 PM   #9
subapooh
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God forbid any of us want to be different/unique, Josh!

"...yes...be a llamma....follow the masses...."
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:36 PM   #10
inpreza kid
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even after you get the engine and tranny i think whats really going to put a hole in your pocket is the labour of putting in a new engine and all the other items required to make the engine work. on top of that you will you need to find someone to tune your car for you.
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Old 04-27-2001, 12:40 PM   #11
efoo
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if that were a STi v.III motor, I'd go for it at that price. But for v.II, it's a bit of a tossup. I'd try it myself except that I already have a turbo EJ25.

Don't forget that you have to redo the wiring harness. As some people have found, it's not as easy as it looks, especially when the only available documentation on the STi wiring harnesses is in Japanese. Debugging swapped/crossed wires is quite an arduous undertaking too - electrical gremlins are the hardest to find in any system.

Transmission-wise, people break the STi transmissions all the time, whether it's an EJ20 or EJ25. Just ask any of the Group N rallyists, where they (until recently) were required to use stock transmissions. To include a transmission buildup in the cost of turbocharging an EJ25 is somewhat unfair. You will very likely have to include that cost in a EJ20 swap too depending on how you drive. Conversely, there are many people out there who enjoy a turbocharged EJ25 with a stock 2.5RS transmission. It all comes down to how you drive.

Fundamentally, there are people in both camps who overestimate the cost of the competing approach, and underestimate the cost of the one they are championing. I actually think it's about the same, especially when you consider not just parts $$, but your time. Does that have any value? I feel that my own time is certainly valuable enough to include that in the equation. Think carefully.

-Edwin
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Old 04-27-2001, 02:30 PM   #12
Derres Catalano
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I will also have an STi motor and trans out of a MY98 (making it a V4?) in about a month. Was planning on keeping it for myself but.......

Everyone has there own opinion. Do what you want. But opening that hood and seeing that red STi intake and STi painted onto the intercooler, man that's cool.
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Old 04-27-2001, 03:32 PM   #13
efoo
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Brad,

You don't need to have a hard time believing anything when you've got facts in front of you. You have all the data you need to make an informed decision, if you look around, and have a calculator handy.

Here's <a href=http://www.lumine.net/subaru/legacyb4/specs/media/STi_Torque.gif>dyno charts</a> from a STi v. IV motor, and here's <a href=http://hesed.mit.edu/~efoo/pix/car/dynocharts/dyno-efoo.jpg>dyno charts</a> from my own car.

Unit conversion time. One ft/lb = 1.35582 newton-meters, so you can convert between the two dyno charts.

So, here you have it. @ 3000rpm, a STi v. 4 motor makes roughly 200 Nm. @ 3000rpm, my car makes 195 ft/lb = 264.3 Nm. Huge difference.

@ 2600rpm, STi ~= 170 Nm.
@ 2600rpm, my car = 150 ft/lb = 203 Nm.

Just to be fair, let's compare peak torque numbers.

@ 4780 rpm, STi = 357.9 Nm.
@ 3500-3700 rpm (more than 1000rpm below the STi motor!), my car = 245ft/lb = 332Nm.

Okay, so I'm a little down on peak torque, but I'm only running 7psi of boost, and I will be ramping up to 9-10psi on stock internals this summer after some further testing. By then I'll have passed the STi motor by the wayside. I already beat it by a large margin below 3000rpm, one that is immediately noticeable once you hop in both cars and drive them on the street. It's the best of both worlds, in my opinion, and I chose to compare an STi motor, not the stock US-spec WRX motor which is down in both categories across all rpms. 'course, your mileage might vary, the dynos are different, yadda yadda yadda. Figure a 10-15% fudge factor between both cars?

Anyways, I hope that helps. Good luck to all of you.

-Edwin


[This message has been edited by efoo (edited April 27, 2001).]
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Old 04-27-2001, 05:08 PM   #14
Derres Catalano
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This will not turn into a EJ20 vs. EJ25 debate. I have a motor (soon 2) for sale. If you don't want it, go post somewhere else.

People can spend days searching for the various posts on cost/benefits of EJ20 swap vs turbo EJ25.

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Old 04-27-2001, 05:16 PM   #15
Thug
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Um, actually we can debate it all we want in this forum. You're actually in the wrong forum captain. You're promoting a private sale in a non-classified forum. Hmmmm, doesnt that break an i-Club rule? Oh, and not to mention you are the one who started this debate. Need I quote you? Anything else I can help you with? I didnt think so.


Thank you and please drive through.
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Old 04-27-2001, 05:17 PM   #16
Derres Catalano
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Oh, and by the way, the STi has a 8000 rpm redline and peak power is at 6800.So why are you comparing your engine to the STi's at 3000 rpm?
The Sti engine is built and blueprinted from STi. The engine itself is known throughout the world to be capable of much more than the Japanese limited 276 hp rating. The STi transmission is a 6 speed built for the power the engine puts out. And on and on and on.....
It is not the most coveted Subaru engine for nothing.
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Old 04-27-2001, 05:26 PM   #17
Swivel1000
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22b engine?
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Old 04-27-2001, 05:51 PM   #18
Derres Catalano
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Woops, been looking through my notes:

STi V4 has a 7300 rpm redline and a 5 speed tranny with final drive of 4.444
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Old 04-27-2001, 05:52 PM   #19
bsquare
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Derres,
The 6 spede transmission was just released this year and will cost you a good $6k alone. Plus motor. Good luck pushing an ancient STi motor in the face of cheap EJ25 turbos pushing more power. Think the engine can't take it? Please see Shiv's car, Kartboy's car, ...
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Old 04-27-2001, 07:29 PM   #20
RimRockaz
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i thought ISR did a wrx motor swap on Pam's car? hmm which WRX engine did they use?
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Old 04-27-2001, 10:44 PM   #21
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally posted by y2k4door:
You're actually in the wrong forum captain. You're promoting a private sale in a non-classified forum. Hmmmm, doesnt that break an i-Club rule?
Not only is he posting something for sale in a non-classified forum, he didn't even post it in the correct non-classified forum! This would be the N/A Forum, not the Turbo Forum. Oh, wait, wait...look, he cleverly tied his thread into the N/A Forum in the subject line: "Why stay N/A when you can get a WRX engine for $2700?" (emphasis added by sarcastic author of this post) Man, that's some clever improper posting, ya gotta give him credit, kids!

Pat Olsen, epitome of posting perfection
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
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Old 04-28-2001, 01:00 AM   #22
MY99 2.5GT
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Efoo,

Good choice on the Ver 3 motor. I'm also considering the engine swap. I don't care about no power below 3000 RPMs. I don't care what you say about power from an EJ20 turbo below 3000rpms. I have a hard time beleiving that a car that produces over 200lb feet of torque around the 4000rpm range would be all that wussy below 3000rpms. Especially compared to a car that only produces a maximum of 166lb feet of torque.

Give me that ver 3 engine and an aftermarket programmable ECU. By the way does anyone know where I could buy one?

Thanks
Brad
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