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Old 01-17-2003, 09:14 AM   #1
Jack
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Default Brake Fluid Thread

Like any consciencious track whore, I look for stuff that I'll need for the upcoming track season, do web research and either order what I need or foget completely and get something that doesn't work as well for twice the price last minute.

I've started in the first phase in brake fluid research and have found some interesting stuff. You guys buying Super Blue (gold) might save some money.

First, since we all bleed our brakes before every event (you better!), only the dry boiling point is of interest. I've converted to degrees F to avoid confusion. Plus many of the fluids use this temp in their name.....hey, if we wanted to be metric and SI units, we'd elect Fidel Castro and....... <rant end>

Here's the meat. I'll list what I've got. Product, dry boiling point, price and units sold in. Starting with the highest temp. I have requested info on several of these products, as some say "tested to" the temp. I don't know for sure if that means that its dry boiling point IS that or not. I'll update this when I find out.

626F: "tested to" Wilwood exp600. $19.75/16 oz, $330/<edit 20> case

610F: Neo 610 12oz can. Anyone ever heard of them?

590F: Castrol SRF. $69.95/1L

585F: Motul 600. $12.99/.5L

570F: Wilwood 570. $?

550F: tie: performance friction $6.27/16 oz and
Ford dot3HD (surprise). Don't know price, but it's very cheap.

536F: ATE Super Blue (gold). $9.95/L

527F: AP551. $12.95/L



If this Wilwood exp ends up being all that it looks to be, I'll most likely buy a case and pass some savings on to you track whores. For those of you crying over the fact that ATE Super Blue is actually sub par to pedestrian Ford fluid.....I was as surprised as you. I know lots of guys use it in showroom stock because it's so darn cheap. They bleed after every run if needed. Now I realize that they had better fluid than some of us did.....although I've used Motul mostly.

jack
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Last edited by Jack; 02-25-2003 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 01-17-2003, 09:18 AM   #2
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Jack,

Where did you source your motul fluids?

thanks
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Old 01-17-2003, 10:56 AM   #3
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yo,

when will you have a chance to try out the wilwood exp600 on track? if you still like it after that, i'd be happy to buy some of the cases from you

raj
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Old 01-17-2003, 11:09 AM   #4
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Alex,

I went searching all over, but the Motul is typically about that price. Shipping is not included and when I've bought it usually look more carefully. Do a google search on motul 600 brake fluid and you'll find a bunch of sources.

Wilwood is pretty widely respected (except their 4 pot Subie upgrades), so I'd have no problem getting a case. Probably just one to start. $330 won't kill me. I think the first track day is in early April......often conflicting with my vacation in the Caribean, but we'll see.

jack
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Old 01-17-2003, 11:37 AM   #5
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$330 buys a set of kumho's for the rainy days at the track let me know if you end up buying the 24 cases - i'll get a few from you for whatever unit price + profit

raj
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Old 01-17-2003, 11:48 AM   #6
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Default Re: Brake Fluid Thread

Quote:
Originally posted by Jack ffr1846
First, since we all bleed our brakes before every event (you better!), only the dry boiling point is of interest.
Hmm, bleeding and flushing are two different things. If you're just bleeding between events, you've still got a lot of fluid remaining in the system. Flushing all the fluid in the system between events seems excessive (and expensive) to me.

I've used the Ford stuff without issues in the past, but to be honest I've never had serious brake issues.

Paul
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Old 01-17-2003, 01:46 PM   #7
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I've read that some "race" fluids, although high temp are extremely absorbant and can damange the brake system. Also they are not compatible with DOT fluid. Is there truth to this?

Berndt

Sitting on a couple liters of ATE.
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:59 PM   #8
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I have read a lot on that. All the fluids that I've listed are compatible with DOT 3 and DOT 4. Some (Motul) don't even list a DOT, from what I remember. They can absorb moisture faster than a regular DOT 3 in some cases. If you are changing (flushing) fluid between track sessions, I can't see it being a problem. Joe Jamoke changes his fluid every 5 years...by buying a new car. An enthusiest changes it every year. Track whores change it by-weekly.

Oh, another "jack's strong opinion" statement: DOT 5 is a fashion statement, not a fluid for "real" cars.



jack
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Old 01-21-2003, 11:12 AM   #9
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added info from another site....

Heavy Duty Brake Fluid Chart



Brand
DOT Rating Dry Boiling Wet Boiling
AP Racing 550
DOT 3 550F (287C) 284F (140C)
AP Racing 600
DOT 3 572F (300C) 284F (140C)
ATE Super Blue
DOT 4 536F (280C) 382F (194C)
ATE Super 200 (amber color, aka Type 200)
DOT 4 536F (280C) 382F (194C)
Bosch DOT 3
DOT 3 491F (255C) 288F (142C)
Bosch DOT 4
DOT 4 509F (265C) 329F (165C)
Bosch DOT 4+
DOT 4 536F (280C) 356F (180C)
Castrol LMA
DOT 4 446F (230C) 311F (155C)
Castrol SRF
DOT 4 590F (310C) 518F (270C)
Ford HD (C6AZ-19542-AB)
DOT 3 550F (287C) 284F (140C)
Motul DOT 5.1
DOT 5.1 509F (265C) 365F (185C)
Motul Racing Brake Fluid 600
DOT 4 594F (312C) 421F (216C)
Performance Friction Z-Rated
DOT 3 550F (287C) 284F (140C)
Wilwood 570
DOT 3 570F (299C) 284F (140C)
Wilwood EXP600 Plus
DOT 4 633F (330C) 417F (213C)




Min. Temp. for DOT Rating
Dry Boiling Wet Boiling

DOT 3
401F 284F

DOT 4
446F 311F

DOT 5
500F 356F
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Old 01-21-2003, 12:03 PM   #10
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I can't believe the dry boiling point of DOT 4 SuperBlue is lower than that of the DOT 3 fluid listed above it.

I think I'm just going to jump to Motul 600. Everyone I know has had good luck with it, and even with SuperBlue, with fresh (read: thick) pads and fresh fluid, I was seeing only very minor amounts of fade even at NHIS.

Thanks for this info, Jack.
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Old 02-07-2003, 02:39 PM   #11
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Default For those having a hard time...

... reading the above table, here's a link:

http://www.seinesystems.com/BrakeFluids.htm
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Old 03-10-2003, 12:16 PM   #12
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Default Check this link...

... anyone have any experience with "Project Mu" brand?

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/cat...cfm?focus=1002

Looks like one of the highest dry/wet boiling temps and is only $25/liter!

Last edited by jpmarotta; 03-10-2003 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 03-10-2003, 05:03 PM   #13
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Here's another site for ya: http://www57.pair.com/lane/bfluid.htm

Seems to have come to many of the same conclusions as you, Jack. That's a good thing - at least you're not way out in left field.

I'm quite surprised that ATE Superblue ranks so low. Personally, I've never had any trouble with it - brake pads have always given out first. But keep in mind that I've used it in rather light cars - my Miata (2100lbs) and a pair of Saturns (2400lbs). The extra weight of an Impreza might push it past its boiling point a bit quicker - especially if you know what you're doing and are using the brakes for all they're worth.

Still, the next time I change fluid, I may strongly consider the Ford HD. It's a little better than Superblue, and cheap. Do you guys know the story of how and why Ford HD was created? It's rather amusing.
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Old 04-04-2003, 11:43 PM   #14
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As I'm prepping for my first track day, I'm going through the list of things I'll need. Brake pads and fluid are on the list. I'm going to go looking for some FordHD or ATE to start. However, the big question comes down to flushing. Anyone used those semi-automatic brake fluid flushing machines?
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Old 04-24-2004, 02:22 PM   #15
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Bump for a great thread.

Tomorrow Im installing:

-PBR Metal Master pads; Front 4 pot, rear stock
-New front OEM 4 pot rotors
-New rear rotors from AutoZone($29.99/each with a 1 year warranty )
-Goodridge Motorsports coated stainless brake lines
-Single Stage brake booster and master cylinder out of Jack's L
-Hella 500s(yellow) w/Kartboy brackets.


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Old 04-24-2004, 03:55 PM   #16
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Today I:
- Installed Carbotech XP's on my car
- Bedded them in (luckily avoiding the local constabulary, who may not have been amused watching a black STi standing on its nose)
- Helped Arex fix his ABS sensor
- Helped Arex bleed his brakes
- Bled my brakes
- Put the stock pads back in
- Loaded all my tools and race tires

Summit Point, here I come!!!!!


Raj
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Old 04-24-2004, 03:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by rajito
- Helped Arex fix his ABS sensor
By which you mean you pulled the fuse, right?

Have fun guys.
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Old 04-24-2004, 03:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by jsnow
By which you mean you pulled the fuse, right?

Have fun guys.
It was a bit harder than that I helped him take off the rear seat and held one end of the left rear ABS sensor while he did all the hard work. I even cheered him on

Raj
[Edit: Btw, I believe he already has his ABS fuse pulled. Btw2, I leave my ABS on. I don't drive that hard and I'd rather not flat spot my tires braking too hard. YMMV, of course ]
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Old 04-24-2004, 06:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by jsnow
By which you mean you pulled the fuse, right?

Have fun guys.
No, my left rear ABS speed sensor was broken... Long story. It's fixed now.
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Old 04-24-2004, 08:06 PM   #20
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For a list of New England MOTUL dealers, please visit htpt://www.triplecaution.us

Cheers! John
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Old 04-24-2004, 09:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Tomorrow Im installing:
All that shiznit better have penetrating fluid stains on it by now or I'm kickin your arse tomorrow.

Fitz
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Old 04-24-2004, 09:24 PM   #22
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Done and done.
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Old 04-24-2004, 10:08 PM   #23
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You're a good man... I don't care what Red Rocket says about you.

Fitz
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Old 04-25-2004, 08:58 PM   #24
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Many thanks to Fitz for doing much more than just helping today. And thanks to Paul too for installing my Hellas. You guys rock. Next time we go out beers are on me.



Disclaimer: Maximum of 10 beers to be bought by me. This means you, Fitz.
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Old 04-25-2004, 09:10 PM   #25
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No problem. Thanks again Fitz for the use of your floor space and jack so I could finally get my snow tires off.

Paul G.
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