Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday May 25, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Normally Aspirated Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-16-2001, 03:52 PM   #1
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
16 WRX (white)
04 FXT (red)

Post Retard timing by boost, not RPM (ITC alternative?)

Hey all, I'm looking for a unit that will retard the ignition based upon boost pressure rather then by RPM like the ITC does. Retarding only when boosting would just make for a much more effecient running car (it's not retarding the timing while cruising).

So far the only thing I've found is for a Miata, but made by MSD. Take a look <a href="http://store.yahoo.com/mossmotors/999-120.html" target="_blank">over here</a> and see what you think.

Does anyone know anything else that will work like this? I've looked around and searched a few other boards but all I keep coming up with is the Jackson Racing unit, which runs off of internal map settings rather then being adjustable (bad since it's just for Hondas).

If noone knows of anything and I can't figure this all out, I'm just going to go cry and give in to debt and take my car to Cobb for a Haltech. :-/
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 02-16-2001, 04:03 PM   #2
Midwayman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1997
Join Date: Jul 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Vehicle:
2006 Acura TL 6spd
STMGM6 alumni

Post

Man, if you're looking at the J&S ultra already, plus safc, plus rrfpr.... thats like $1000 right there. Just go for a haltech setup... you'll probably be happier in the long run rather than shell out a little less now and then buy it all again in 6 months when money is a little easier.
Midwayman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 04:06 PM   #3
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
16 WRX (white)
04 FXT (red)

Post

The Ultra Safeguard won't work on our cars because it is for single ignition coil cars only. We have a dual ignition coil system that requires a redesign in circutry (which J&S says will be done in 6 months!).

Besides, I'm dropping the S-AFC from the kit and adding a J&S for an extra cost of hopefully less then $100 (see GB in Private Classifieds).
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2001, 10:35 PM   #4
Rick Hunter
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 825
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Kanada
Vehicle:
2002 wrx

Post

Hey 8, seems like we're in the same boat. Check out the TMC1. I talked with the guys at ASR a while back about it in this post:
http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Foru...ML/000963.html

and just the other day I mentioned it in the potential J&S Ultra Safeguard.
http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum2/HTML/004286.html

As far as I can tell, the only thing that is missing from the TMC1 is a knock sensor. (something significant at higher boost levels imo)

What's your opinion on it?

Rick Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 03:49 PM   #5
rao
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 52
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Naperville, IL
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT
98 BMW 540i LS2/T56

Post

Any ignition for distributorless ignitions will work, Crane HI-6, MSD 6212, and others. Keep in mind that raterd based solely on boost is not necessarily the wy to go - I believe that you want maxmum retard at the torque peak, after that you don't need as much retard, so with timing reeferenced solely to boost, you will be leaving some power behind.
rao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 04:46 PM   #6
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
16 WRX (white)
04 FXT (red)

Post

Rick Hunter - Doh! That was my thread too... what am I, blind?? *shakes head* Neat unit though, just short of a programmable ECU it seems.

Rao - You're probably right about it not being exactly what I'm looking for but I've found out something else -

tluzziracing has informed me about J&S being able to write software into the J&S units to retard timing at certain RPM's. He says that his unit is set to retard 5 at 4500, 10 at 5000, and 15 at 5500 and that he gets very little knock activity and it pulls hard. I think this is the route I am going to go as it's simple and provides protection. Well at least until I get a programmable ECU that is.
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 05:09 PM   #7
ludespeed
Vendor
 
Member#: 2734
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Deltona, FL
Post

Personally, I think the Ultra Safegaurd would be the best way to go, but unfortunately it won't wok on the coil pack ignition. And last time I talked to MSD, the BTM (which is what that Miata unit is) won't either. The Split Second box looks really good as far as a boost referenced ignition control. But it doesn't offer the knock detection so you have to choose one or the other. The Split Second or the Version 1 J&S. I feel that both are far better than the ITC.
How much is the Haltech again? For high boost users, that might be the only way to go (or TEC II)
Tom
ludespeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 08:41 PM   #8
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
16 WRX (white)
04 FXT (red)

Post

Tom - I believe installed and tuned by Cobb Tuning is right around $1500, but I know I got a quote of around $1800 but I know there was a $300 option in there for something, I don't remember what though.
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 09:19 PM   #9
kaos200
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2692
Join Date: Oct 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SoCal
Post

I would say if you're looking for something that will work well and provide safe/reliable and economic power I would recommend the Wolf 3D , such as installed by B-Spec (they will be doing mine shortly after the turbo is done...) Why go through the hassle of adding removing piggybacks when you don't know what the hassle is?
With the stand alone system you know it will work and that EVERYTHING can be adjusted...
if you have any q's e-mail me...
kaos200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 10:23 PM   #10
ImprezaRS dot com
over boosted again
Moderator
 
Member#: 1458
Join Date: May 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs CO USA
Vehicle:
2015 Forester 2.0 XT
2005 2.5 RS, 2013 Tribeca

Post

I have found someone to build such a unit, and we hope to start testing soon.

It will retard timing 1 or 2 degrees for each lb of boost. And, the goal is to not trigger CE lights like the APEX'i ITC. I have no more information on it yet. I will let you know how this turns out soon.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com

[edit] accidentally said J&S causes CE lights and replaced words with "ITC"

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited February 20, 2001).]
ImprezaRS dot com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2001, 11:28 PM   #11
TMR Impreza
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 168
Join Date: Aug 1999
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Pedro
Vehicle:
2011 M3 and 328i
white and black

Post

www.splitsec.com

check out the TMC1

[This message has been edited by TMR Impreza (edited February 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by TMR Impreza (edited February 17, 2001).]
TMR Impreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2001, 01:11 AM   #12
AaronB
Worst Mod Ever
Moderator
 
Member#: 369
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Vehicle:
12 Vagon

Smile

8,

I think we can get good prices on the Split Second TMC-1 if 5 people are interested.

When I ordered from Split Second a month ago they sent me a price list and it shows a dealer price when 5 units are ordered at one time. With 5 units it is over $200 off retail.

Just thought I would bring that up.

Aaron
http://www.azscooby.com
AaronB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2001, 01:03 PM   #13
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
16 WRX (white)
04 FXT (red)

Post

kaos200 - I've considered it, and it's a great price, but I don't want to have to install it myself since there is too large a possibility of error, and he is over 2500 miles from me.

I was really considering the Haltech setup, and I just may get it by the end of summer. Just another reason I am looking to keep my electronics to a minimum in the meantime.

ImprezaRS dot com - tluzziracing is running a J&S without a CE light on that JCS GB kit, just FYI. I'll keep my ears open about that retard/boost unit you're working on, sounds cool.

TMR Impreza - Neat unit. Just short of a programmable ECU.

AaronB - Maybe I'll mention it to the guy making the its for my GB and see if he can get the deal going as well. Looks like a damn sweet unit if we can get it for the price of an ITC.
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2001, 07:19 PM   #14
ImprezaRS dot com
over boosted again
Moderator
 
Member#: 1458
Join Date: May 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs CO USA
Vehicle:
2015 Forester 2.0 XT
2005 2.5 RS, 2013 Tribeca

Post

I know the J&S wont trigger a CE light, and I hear the Apex'i ITC will set off CE lights if retard is more than 5 degrees. It seems that solutions for timing control are $360 - $600 street price, and the new J&S ultra guard looks the coolest for $695.

What Dave is working on will be a simple device to allow for 1, 2 or 3 degrees of retard per pound of boost. Price is not known since development just got started, but it will certainly be more affordable, in keeping with my moto "Best Bang for the Buck".

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
ImprezaRS dot com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2001, 12:14 AM   #15
ImprezaRS dot com
over boosted again
Moderator
 
Member#: 1458
Join Date: May 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Colorado Springs CO USA
Vehicle:
2015 Forester 2.0 XT
2005 2.5 RS, 2013 Tribeca

Talking

Just thought I'd mention that we had our first beta-test (of the first prototype) of the new www.digitalECMsystems.com timing control Friday (website is only a placeholder right now)!

While I normally can only run 7 psi on 91 octane with 10:1 CR at 6,000 feet, I need octane booster in the tank to run 9-10 psi. However, with the beta timing controller installed, I was able to run 9-10 psi with 91 octane pump gas! This 9-10 psi test was without any CE lights at that level of boost and retard. EGT's normally are 1400 and ran 1475 during the test. This is considerable boost for those 10:1 pistons.

We had deactivated the unit's max-retard limit, so in testing it was possible to retard the timing excessively and get a flashing CE light, and even kill the motor. But, it will not be an issue in the final version which will limit max retard. And you'd never run that much retard anyways, it was like 20-30 degrees of retard, which is a LOT! You will likely only run 8-15 degrees of retard to keep ignition advance below 25 degrees. We only did it for educational purposes. I understand the APEXi ITC can only go about minus 5 degrees before seeing CE lights indicating a misfire, and we can go well past that. Our software doesn't let the ECU see more than 1-2 degrees of retard for brief periods (I'm guessing), and only as the retard ramps up. So, no CE lights looking like misfires, none...

We will be doing more fine tuning of the software, and activating the boost circuit to vary the retard as boost goes up or down, and working on the form factor and what features it will have. So, we still have a ways to go. This is still a breadboard kit type circuit board and when it is final we will have the circuit boards and cases made up in batches. We will likely make some inexpensive one-off units to put in several test cars after testing is done in my car, before we produce the final units. These won't have all the extra optional features of the final units.

Our business goal is to have a data bus to connect other modules to it - so we can add boost control, dual fuel injector control for accessory injectors, more sophisticated knock control like a J&S, then add another fuel injector control to make it into a full ECU when all the modules are together. Thus, there would be other options for controllers and displays too.

I'll keep you posted.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
ImprezaRS dot com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2001, 12:44 AM   #16
XT6Wagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 524
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: WA
Vehicle:
04 STi
White

Post

Hmm, Want me to swing by MSD and see what they have? IF they don't have anything I'll run the problem by them and see what they say.

I think I will be there some time this week.
XT6Wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2001, 06:35 AM   #17
Jon Bogert
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1133
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: SE PA
Vehicle:
09 GTR, 02 996 C4S
95 993 C4, 71 911, 04 STI

Thumbs up

I've been holding out for the J&S Ultra, but if Larry & Co. can come up with a simple, cheap retard vs boost device, that would be great. On such a mildly tuned street car, I'd really rather not have to tape over the CEL.

The local Sunoco just raised the price of GT to $4.40 a gallon. Ouch!
Jon Bogert is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
hedgz, are you a retard time bomb? Strider Off-Topic 23 01-05-2006 02:08 AM
Retarded Timing WRX-CBR Newbies & FAQs 13 06-14-2005 07:40 PM
STi boost creep caused by flapper not opening enough?? eightballrj Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 5 03-09-2004 03:41 PM
Why is timing not RPM-derived? QA Guy Engine Management & Tuning 3 07-26-2003 04:36 PM
How does the UTEC retard timing when it detects knock? QA Guy Engine Management & Tuning 18 07-03-2003 02:35 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.