N/A intercooler setup (CHECK THIS OUT)

impRSa01 · 02-25-2001, 08:07 PM

I posted something two days ago and it is now not on the board somehow. So I will post it again. Here it goes:

I have a stock setup right now on my MY01. I have enough for the best intake if that's what I decide to do. I will sacrifice some low end torque but not as much as what the damn Weapon R supposedly takes away. Anyways, what do you guys think about a setup like this:

An intercooler on a non-forced inducted car. It would have the three vacuum lines connecting to it, but only one 2.75" pipe to connect to the T/B. 8Comples said that it is the engine having to work to hard to suck in air that makes it lose torque, along with lack of pressure. Wouldn't this solve the problem, because the intercooler can hold just as much air or even more that the stock air box to begin with and the air even gets there faster. I wouldn't think this would give you the same HP and torque as by just putting a filter on the T/B. A filter would act just like a short tubed intake, only no tubing. This would give you the air you need to run it in low rpm cycles, yet kick ass after 4000 rpms as well. Kind of like 8Complex's setup, only a real intercooler (aluminum).

HIT ME WITH THE FEEDBACK

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Midwayman · 02-25-2001, 08:24 PM

You dont grasp the basic concept of an intercooler. An intercooler is not an active cooler. (well, most cases.....) It works by reducing hot compressed air to ambient temps. A NA car does not have the compression, and does not heat the intake charge (or at least above underhood temps at worst) Without a tempeture difference between the intake charge and ambient, the IC will NOT cool the air further. It will simply restrict the airflow to the TB. A intercooler is a very bad idea on a NA car.

Couple of things you could do... route the AC to the intercooler somehow. Or use the water sprayer on the IC. Both of these would reduce temps somewhat below ambient. However the negatives would far out weigh the positives.

Fitz · 02-25-2001, 08:28 PM

There's been a few posts on this topic.. all coming to the conclusion that the negative's far outweigh the positives.... Doing a search would bring back a lot of those if you're still interested.

Fitz

adamsrs · 02-26-2001, 10:02 AM

Would it be front mount or top mount?
adamsrs www.unnatural.org

Skirvdawg · 02-26-2001, 01:20 PM

The only thing an intercooler does is cool down the air before it gets to a turbo. A turbo runs off of exhaust gas and these gasses are what need to be cooled.

donjuan · 02-26-2001, 01:25 PM

I don't think you're quite accurate Skirvdawg.

tomrichardson · 02-26-2001, 01:30 PM

Shirvdog is somewhat incorrect.

The only thing the exhaust gases are used for is to turn the fan in the turbo. There are two peices to a turbo, the exhaust peice and the intake piece. When the exhaust peice turns its fan, the intake fan also turns. The intake fan acts like a reverse jet and SUCKS air from the air cleaner. Then the air is put through the intercooler, and then to the combustion chamber. Hence: Forced induction. Not recycled gas induction.

[This message has been edited by tomrichardson (edited February 26, 2001).]

impRSa01 · 02-26-2001, 01:47 PM

I was thinking a top mount intercooler, but possibly a front mount, like the FMIC for the hondas. I am not sure though, just wanted to see what you guys thought about the whole idea. Don't let intercooler throw your thoughts off. In an N/A situation, you wouldn't even call it in intercooler, but it would let just as much air in as an intercooler. So don't tell me about how it cools the hot air to ambient temperature. I understand how it would work for a turbo, but in this case it just lets more air in. It would just resemble the shape of a top mount, but only connect to the T/B.

SHADOWES · 02-26-2001, 01:59 PM

MABEY I AM MISS UNDERSTANDING YOU BUT HOW WOULD AN INTERCOOLER LET MORE AIR INTO THE TB. A INTERCOOLER WOULD FLOW LESS AIR THAN A STRAIGHT PIPE INTAKE... ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE LITTLE RAM/COLD AIR THINGS AVAILABLE THAT MOUNT IN FRONT LIKE AN INTERCOOLER???

cj917 · 02-26-2001, 02:06 PM

"you wouldn't even call it in intercooler, but it would let just as much air in as an intercooler"

so what you are looking for is a "ram-air" design airbox then

an intercooler is a heat-exchanger, that means it gives away the heat in the intake air charge to the ambient air, and in exchange the intake pressure drops slightly (depending on the design of the IC core)

if you look at an IC, you'll notice how restricted (for the lack of better work, sorry) is it for air for flow through the IC core... in a N/A case, i suspect that it might even rob the performance a little, but in a force-induction case, it won't matter since the air is pressurized

Midwayman · 02-26-2001, 02:24 PM

Actually the restriction matters for FI cars as well. Thats why the ICs are rated for pressure drop. Of course the benefit of a cooler charge far outweighs the restriction in FI.

Skirvdawg · 02-26-2001, 05:10 PM

Yeah, you're right. I forgot about the second set of fan blades in the turbo. The exhaust gasses turn the first set which then draws in and injects fresh air with the second set of blades. My bad.

I'm studying for a test and part of it is superchargers, blowers, and turbochargers. I got all excited and thought I'd post something interesting. Oh well, I tried.

go go go · 02-27-2001, 12:20 AM

Intercooler is for Turbo or SC only.
Turbo charger powered by the exhaust gas forces intake air into the throttle body. As the air been compressed, it is hot. The heat is not mainly from turbo charger, it is from been compressed. So, intercooler is there to cool the intake air, the cooler the air the denser the air meaning more oxygen. If their is no turbo, the intake air is not compressed and not hot.

chomer · 02-27-2001, 09:53 PM

I don't know if it's just me or what, but I think that people are on a different page here. I think he understands that an intercooler would not help substantially drop the air temp. But I also think that is not what he's asking.

If I read it correctly, he wants to use an intercooler as a torque/throttle box. During low RPMs, the air in this fake airbox provides the air to give the car lots of pep.

My belief is that you're probably better off taking an air filter box off a 2000 and shutting the lid together.

Homer

JGard · 02-28-2001, 04:54 AM

check out the site www.howstuffworks.com and look for the link to how turbos work. you'll realize why this idea won't work...

bash555 · 02-28-2001, 11:35 AM

Hey ShadowES,

dude, go read the posting ruled again.

NO CAPS ALLOWED!

8Complex · 02-28-2001, 11:51 AM

You could do something like that, but I think the intercooler would actually provide resistence as it isn't designed to be free-flowing (remember, air is usually pushed through there forcefully).

The only way you can get an intercooler to work with an N/A car correctly is to be actively spraying it with a vey cold gas like NOS or CO2 to actually cool the temperature of the intercooler below outside air temperature (which is what the turbo/supercharger uses it for... cooling to outside temps).

cj917 · 02-28-2001, 04:16 PM

what 8complex said

just go take a look at an IC, and look at its core and where air is going in and coming out... and then tell me it's not restrictive

impRSa01:
iSR has their intake design just like that... look at here and there are many discussions regarding intake designs, and Trey Cobb not too long ago posted his findings... a simply search would do wonders

impRSa01 · 03-01-2001, 12:29 AM

Chomer, I never thought about that. By taking the filter out of the stock air box, but leaving the box there and just closing it. Then you could add 3" aluminum pipe wherever then add the filter to it. You arent getting rid of the box to lose torque, so maybe it would work. I dont think the filter is what helps it give it more torque down low, so why would the filter hurt it if you took it out? Can someone tell me if this is even a better solution or HAS IT BEEN DONE?

02-25-2001, 08:07 PM	#1
impRSa01 Scooby Newbie Member#: 4411 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Appleton, WI Vehicle: 2001 Impreza 2.5 RS Black	N/A intercooler setup (CHECK THIS OUT) I posted something two days ago and it is now not on the board somehow. So I will post it again. Here it goes: I have a stock setup right now on my MY01. I have enough for the best intake if that's what I decide to do. I will sacrifice some low end torque but not as much as what the damn Weapon R supposedly takes away. Anyways, what do you guys think about a setup like this: An intercooler on a non-forced inducted car. It would have the three vacuum lines connecting to it, but only one 2.75" pipe to connect to the T/B. 8Comples said that it is the engine having to work to hard to suck in air that makes it lose torque, along with lack of pressure. Wouldn't this solve the problem, because the intercooler can hold just as much air or even more that the stock air box to begin with and the air even gets there faster. I wouldn't think this would give you the same HP and torque as by just putting a filter on the T/B. A filter would act just like a short tubed intake, only no tubing. This would give you the air you need to run it in low rpm cycles, yet kick ass after 4000 rpms as well. Kind of like 8Complex's setup, only a real intercooler (aluminum). HIT ME WITH THE FEEDBACK * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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02-25-2001, 08:24 PM	#2
Midwayman Scooby Specialist Member#: 1997 Join Date: Jul 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Prospect Heights, IL Vehicle: 2006 Acura TL 6spd STMGM6 alumni	You dont grasp the basic concept of an intercooler. An intercooler is not an active cooler. (well, most cases.....) It works by reducing hot compressed air to ambient temps. A NA car does not have the compression, and does not heat the intake charge (or at least above underhood temps at worst) Without a tempeture difference between the intake charge and ambient, the IC will NOT cool the air further. It will simply restrict the airflow to the TB. A intercooler is a very bad idea on a NA car. Couple of things you could do... route the AC to the intercooler somehow. Or use the water sprayer on the IC. Both of these would reduce temps somewhat below ambient. However the negatives would far out weigh the positives.

02-25-2001, 08:28 PM	#3
Fitz Scooby Guru Member#: 1426 Join Date: May 2000 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Goffstown, NH Vehicle: '07 335xi, '07 ZX6R SV650 Race Bike	There's been a few posts on this topic.. all coming to the conclusion that the negative's far outweigh the positives.... Doing a search would bring back a lot of those if you're still interested. Fitz

02-26-2001, 10:02 AM	#4
adamsrs Scooby Specialist Member#: 3768 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA	Would it be front mount or top mount? adamsrs www.unnatural.org

02-26-2001, 01:20 PM	#5
Skirvdawg Scooby Newbie Member#: 3375 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Virginia Beach Vehicle: 2002 VW Jetta Wagon Black	The only thing an intercooler does is cool down the air before it gets to a turbo. A turbo runs off of exhaust gas and these gasses are what need to be cooled.

02-26-2001, 01:25 PM	#6
donjuan Scooby Specialist Member#: 2248 Join Date: Aug 2000	I don't think you're quite accurate Skirvdawg.

02-26-2001, 01:30 PM	#7
tomrichardson Scooby Specialist Member#: 2672 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Lakewood, CO USA Vehicle: 1973 Porsche 914 Porsche Red	Shirvdog is somewhat incorrect. The only thing the exhaust gases are used for is to turn the fan in the turbo. There are two peices to a turbo, the exhaust peice and the intake piece. When the exhaust peice turns its fan, the intake fan also turns. The intake fan acts like a reverse jet and SUCKS air from the air cleaner. Then the air is put through the intercooler, and then to the combustion chamber. Hence: Forced induction. Not recycled gas induction. [This message has been edited by tomrichardson (edited February 26, 2001).]

02-26-2001, 01:47 PM	#8
impRSa01 Scooby Newbie Member#: 4411 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Appleton, WI Vehicle: 2001 Impreza 2.5 RS Black	I was thinking a top mount intercooler, but possibly a front mount, like the FMIC for the hondas. I am not sure though, just wanted to see what you guys thought about the whole idea. Don't let intercooler throw your thoughts off. In an N/A situation, you wouldn't even call it in intercooler, but it would let just as much air in as an intercooler. So don't tell me about how it cools the hot air to ambient temperature. I understand how it would work for a turbo, but in this case it just lets more air in. It would just resemble the shape of a top mount, but only connect to the T/B.

02-26-2001, 01:59 PM	#9
SHADOWES Scooby Newbie Member#: 4427 Join Date: Feb 2001 Chapter/Region: SWIC Location: Albuquerque, NM Vehicle: 1998 Legacy GT silver for now	MABEY I AM MISS UNDERSTANDING YOU BUT HOW WOULD AN INTERCOOLER LET MORE AIR INTO THE TB. A INTERCOOLER WOULD FLOW LESS AIR THAN A STRAIGHT PIPE INTAKE... ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE LITTLE RAM/COLD AIR THINGS AVAILABLE THAT MOUNT IN FRONT LIKE AN INTERCOOLER???

02-26-2001, 02:06 PM	#10
cj917 Scooby Specialist Member#: 627 Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: boston Vehicle: MY96 outback wagon	"you wouldn't even call it in intercooler, but it would let just as much air in as an intercooler" so what you are looking for is a "ram-air" design airbox then an intercooler is a heat-exchanger, that means it gives away the heat in the intake air charge to the ambient air, and in exchange the intake pressure drops slightly (depending on the design of the IC core) if you look at an IC, you'll notice how restricted (for the lack of better work, sorry) is it for air for flow through the IC core... in a N/A case, i suspect that it might even rob the performance a little, but in a force-induction case, it won't matter since the air is pressurized

02-26-2001, 02:24 PM	#11
Midwayman Scooby Specialist Member#: 1997 Join Date: Jul 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Prospect Heights, IL Vehicle: 2006 Acura TL 6spd STMGM6 alumni	Actually the restriction matters for FI cars as well. Thats why the ICs are rated for pressure drop. Of course the benefit of a cooler charge far outweighs the restriction in FI.

02-26-2001, 05:10 PM	#12
Skirvdawg Scooby Newbie Member#: 3375 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Virginia Beach Vehicle: 2002 VW Jetta Wagon Black	Yeah, you're right. I forgot about the second set of fan blades in the turbo. The exhaust gasses turn the first set which then draws in and injects fresh air with the second set of blades. My bad. I'm studying for a test and part of it is superchargers, blowers, and turbochargers. I got all excited and thought I'd post something interesting. Oh well, I tried.

02-27-2001, 12:20 AM	#13
go go go Scooby Specialist Member#: 2784 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Japan	Intercooler is for Turbo or SC only. Turbo charger powered by the exhaust gas forces intake air into the throttle body. As the air been compressed, it is hot. The heat is not mainly from turbo charger, it is from been compressed. So, intercooler is there to cool the intake air, the cooler the air the denser the air meaning more oxygen. If their is no turbo, the intake air is not compressed and not hot.

02-27-2001, 09:53 PM	#14
chomer Scooby Newbie Member#: 2510 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Austin, TX USA	I don't know if it's just me or what, but I think that people are on a different page here. I think he understands that an intercooler would not help substantially drop the air temp. But I also think that is not what he's asking. If I read it correctly, he wants to use an intercooler as a torque/throttle box. During low RPMs, the air in this fake airbox provides the air to give the car lots of pep. My belief is that you're probably better off taking an air filter box off a 2000 and shutting the lid together. Homer

02-28-2001, 04:54 AM	#15
JGard pooptastic Member#: 1904 Join Date: Jul 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: Foster City, CA Vehicle: 2013 Tundra '02 BMW R1100S	check out the site www.howstuffworks.com and look for the link to how turbos work. you'll realize why this idea won't work...

02-28-2001, 11:35 AM	#16
bash555 Scooby Newbie Member#: 1539 Join Date: May 2000 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: NOVA Vehicle: 2005 STi '71 914	Hey ShadowES, dude, go read the posting ruled again. NO CAPS ALLOWED!

02-28-2001, 11:51 AM	#17
8Complex Moderator Member#: 922 Join Date: Feb 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Schaumburg, IL Vehicle: 04 FXT Red	You could do something like that, but I think the intercooler would actually provide resistence as it isn't designed to be free-flowing (remember, air is usually pushed through there forcefully). The only way you can get an intercooler to work with an N/A car correctly is to be actively spraying it with a vey cold gas like NOS or CO2 to actually cool the temperature of the intercooler below outside air temperature (which is what the turbo/supercharger uses it for... cooling to outside temps).

02-28-2001, 04:16 PM	#18
cj917 Scooby Specialist Member#: 627 Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: boston Vehicle: MY96 outback wagon	what 8complex said just go take a look at an IC, and look at its core and where air is going in and coming out... and then tell me it's not restrictive impRSa01: iSR has their intake design just like that... look at here and there are many discussions regarding intake designs, and Trey Cobb not too long ago posted his findings... a simply search would do wonders

03-01-2001, 12:29 AM	#19
impRSa01 Scooby Newbie Member#: 4411 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Appleton, WI Vehicle: 2001 Impreza 2.5 RS Black	Chomer, I never thought about that. By taking the filter out of the stock air box, but leaving the box there and just closing it. Then you could add 3" aluminum pipe wherever then add the filter to it. You arent getting rid of the box to lose torque, so maybe it would work. I dont think the filter is what helps it give it more torque down low, so why would the filter hurt it if you took it out? Can someone tell me if this is even a better solution or HAS IT BEEN DONE?