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Old 04-10-2001, 01:27 PM   #26
efoo
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yup, what Colin said.

I should point out that a knock sensor of any type, whether it's built into the ECU or is an external unit, can save your butt. For example, with the HalTech I believe you enter in values on a big table, with rpm and MAP readings as the axes. You could easily make a typo and enter in 21 degrees of advance instead of 12, save the map, and start the car, and once you hit that particular cell, bye-bye motor, unless your knock sensor jumps in and saves the day.

The TEC-II does have somewhat of a user-interface advantage in this regard because you don't fill in a big table. You fill in parameters to describe a fuel/ignition curve. So you have to be trying pretty hard to make big spikes in the curve like that. There's also convenient 3-D graphing tools so you can check for typos and inconsistencies in your maps before you download them. It's quite easy to notice a typo when your nice curve suddenly jumps off the chart, and when you're tuning a car late at night, typos can and will happen.

-Edwin
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Old 04-10-2001, 02:18 PM   #27
Thug
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Edwin,
I swear that was Jude had said, so he must be mistaken himself or I misunderstood.


Edit: It was when going thru the CARWASH not a puddle, sorry.


[This message has been edited by y2k4door (edited April 10, 2001).]
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Old 04-10-2001, 02:30 PM   #28
Jude DeMeis
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Yes, Edwin told me that he experienced "weatherproofing" issues with the TEC-II that he was working to resolve. He said water seemed to effect the system, particularly strange running after a car wash. Last we discussed it, he suspected the unprotected nature of the ECU connections and the vulnerable location of the controller to the elements under the hood instead of inside the vehicle like a conventional ECU.
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Old 04-10-2001, 02:35 PM   #29
stimpy
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Just to clarify, the HalTech does not have any raw number entry. The bulk of the fuel and ignition tuning is done through a bar graph which you raise or lower the value. Only problem I see with that system, is that each rpm breakpoint has fuel/ignition values per vacuum level; thus, it is impossible to see the entire fuel or ignition curve. However, since you can easily switch from each breakpoint, you can compare the previous and next breakpoint values just ensure you don't have any value spikes.

<IMG SRC="http://www.susogi.net/stimpy/images/haltech.jpg" border=0>

-Jon
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Old 04-10-2001, 02:44 PM   #30
Thug
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And furthermore, has anybody been able to properly tune a TEC-II on a Subaru besides Shiv? I know some of you guys flew Shiv out here to help you tune yours, and Im guessing you split the cost of his airfare and maybe his hotel? But that's just speculation. You guys can clarify if you'd like. But if it is true, that means that a good 99% of the population has to add the cost of Shiv's plane ticket, hotel, etc to the price of their Tec-II system. Cuz I know you are a pretty smart fellow Edwin, and from what you've said the car is running alot better now that Shiv has fine tuned it. Now Im not saying that any system is better than any other system. Im in no place to make such a claim having not used any of them.
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Old 04-10-2001, 04:57 PM   #31
efoo
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Yup, what Jude says is correct. My car has been known to sometimes act strangely after going through a car wash. But it has never cut out or died, and after drying out for a little bit, has operated fine afterwards. Shiv suspects there might be some water damage to the TEC-II unit itself from either the original (subpar) installation, courtesy of yours truly, or from the New England winter, and I will be shipping it back to Electromotive this week for inspection and possibly repair.

I am one of the first people to have owned a TEC-II on the East Coast/New England, and my car went through the winter just like everyone else. Even stock cars are known to sometimes act strange if the engine bay is powerwashed hard. I also did the installation myself, and I'll be the first to say that I'm not a master mechanic by any means. So I did make some mistakes during the install and may have inadvertently let some connections get exposed. I have since redone the installation with the help of others and it works fine now.

As for the tuning process itself, yup, Shiv did fly out here and met up with four of us to tune our cars over a period of 5 days. We did split his airfare - plane tickets have been cheap lately so we took advantage of that, but we made a vacation out of it so there were no hotel expenses. There's been no secret made about that - he posted about it himself and named us by name. And I posted dyno charts from that trip a week later.

My car was definitely running before Shiv came over, and many people can verify that because they've sat in my car or driven it. It just wasn't making the power it should have, nor was it quite as smooth. A major reason for that was it is simply hard to really fine-tune the cars without being on a dyno. I in particular live right in the middle of the city, which makes it impossible to find good spots to repeatedly make wide-open-throttle runs and datalog results. This would be the case with any kind of programmable system - you need good data in order to make good decisions. Once I had access to the dyno, life went much easier, and we also just took advantage of the economics of numbers to go ahead and bring Shiv out here while we were at it. The fact that we also went out to a portion of Connecticut where it is possible to drive for miles and never see another car helped a lot too. If I had been able to do that around where I live I would have been in much better shape before Shiv visited.

Anyways, the moral of the story is that any programmable system requires (a)time, (b)space, and (c) patience. There is a high learning curve with either system, so it is no small surprise that Trey recommends that people installing Haltechs come to Texas to have them installed and tuned. The fact that I was able to install a TEC-II at all without any prior experience and start the car and idle it, albeit roughly, and drive it home on the first try, should speak for itself. To put things in perspective, the most complicated electrical mod I'd done to my car before then was change my headlight bulbs. Of course, being methodical and able to closely follow directions helps a lot too, and I wasn't all that great at either, but I slogged through and made it work. Anyone else following this path, whether they use the TEC-II or HalTech, will have to do the same unless they've done it before. It's as simple as that. If you're looking for a "bolt-on", idiot-proof, solution, you are definitely looking in the wrong place. Not because it is bolt-on, but it is not idiot-proof.

But I am fairly certain I'm now extracting 99% out of what is capable in the car, and safely at that. That's what makes programmable ECUs so cool. Which one you use is up to you. The point is that you should use one. Even if you don't know how/don't want to learn how to program it yourself, you should still have one. No one debates the need for an improved clutch when you turbocharge a 2.5RS, whether or not you are capable of installing it yourself. It just needs to be done, and if you can't do it yourself, you just need to pay someone else to do it for you. I strongly feel that it is the same way with the programmable ECUs. Now that I've seen Shiv in action myself I feel comfortable enough to further tweak with the maps and know what I am doing for the most part too, so I don't forsee having Shiv personally touch my car again unless I do something truly major like build a new engine block with major internal work, change the entire turbo setup, or something like that. But I don't have to either - I have not had the laptop in the car even once since Shiv left, and that along with the grins I get on my face every time I start the car up and floor it is enough to say it was worth it. I'm sure Jude feels the same way about his STi V.3 conversion too, so he should understand.

-Edwin


[This message has been edited by efoo (edited April 10, 2001).]
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Old 04-10-2001, 05:12 PM   #32
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Good stuff Edwin. Thanx for taking the time to post.
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Old 04-10-2001, 08:18 PM   #33
shiv
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y2k4door writes..."And furthermore, has anybody been able to properly tune a TEC-II on a Subaru besides Shiv?"

I certainly would think so. There are probably close to 20,000 TEC-IIs on the road right now with only 70 of those being my customers. Out of which only 10 or so I've tuned myself. I would venture to say that TEC-II tuners are more plentiful than the rest due to the sheer numbers of TEC-IIs out there-- both in club racing and in domestic/imprort street car applications.

The East Coast trip was a large sucess in more than one way. In fact, the trip generated some really good baseline files that will be sucessfully used in future applications for future customers.

Before my East Coast trip, my baseline files were derived from my car which runs 92 octane California gas (methanol mix). Cars not subject to our rotten fuel need to run leaner with more advance. Running my original maps, the East Coast cars ran overly rich with too much ignition retard. Safe, but not ideal for performance. The East Coast Suby guys, at my request, didn't deviate much from my CA-derived files. As a result, their cars were detuned. But that's history now, I guess. I'm just happy everyone is happy

Cheers,
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Old 04-11-2001, 12:40 AM   #34
Thug
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I have heard 1 negative about the Tech II that I dont think has been discussed.

I know there is a local who's Tech II sometimes cuts out when he goes thru a puddle. I dont think this would be an issue with the Haltech.
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Old 04-11-2001, 12:48 AM   #35
stimpy
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That is actually part of a larger issue regarding connections to the actual Tech-II unit. I think it has flaky connections that must be cared for and covered with some sort protectant to prevent the elements from making contact with it. I do not think it is a big deal if you are aware of the issue.

How important is the built in knock sensor going to be? I know the Haltech doesn't have it, but I am also aware that the Tech-II users actually disable the knock sensor after 4500-5000rpm. Is the knock sensor going to mostly be used on throttle roll in or at peak boost? I am also aware of the fact that you are supposed to completely disable the knock sensor while tuning the Tech-II unit.

-Jon
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Old 04-11-2001, 12:52 AM   #36
efoo
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a local with a TEC-II that cuts out going through a puddle? That's quite honestly the first I've heard of it... Nate, if you'd elaborate on the details instead of alluding to hearsay it would help.

Also, it's a well-known fact of life that electricity and water don't mix well. A HalTec set up in a bad way so that it could get wet would also suffer. Paul Eklund's ProRally Impreza has a TEC-II in it and seems to have done just fine, and I think he's gotten the car a lot dirtier than most people on this board...

-Edwin
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