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Old 02-06-2003, 03:21 AM   #1
CrowbarKen
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Default lightweight crank pulley with harmonic dampner, stock size

I don't know if I am posting this in the proper place but I guese I'll find out.
I wondered of anyone can point me towards a lightweight crank pulley that incorporates harmonic dampening into it's design. I want the benifits of the lightweight crank pulley without the fear of damaging any thing. I looked through a good deal of product reviews but if any thing was mentioned about this I must have missed it. I want to find one that is lightened but is also NOT and underdrive style pulley. Thanks
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Old 02-06-2003, 06:43 AM   #2
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Default not yet

So far I have not been able to locate one. I have been looking for one for over a year.

Near as I can determine no vendor makes one for our cars.

Larry
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:23 AM   #3
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Just get a lightweight flywheel. It will have a bigger effect.

Kevin
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:38 AM   #4
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So far I have read all the discussions on the crank pulley issue.

Wouldn't a lightweight harmonic dampener be an oxymoron? I came away from all that reading with the understanding that the stock crank pulley tames the crank's vibrations through a combination of weight and an intermediary rubber ring between the hub and the belt drive ring.

Looks to me like the best solution would be to make a dampener out of something with a greater density than cast iron so the hub could be smaller, but weigh the same. Tungsten is about 2.5 times denser than iron and is not horribly expensive at $25 per pound in powdered form; most all tungsten shapes are done through powder metallurgy. The outer ring could still be stainless or aluminum to cut down the cost. Then you would need to have the two pieces vulcanized together. Finally the whole assembly would need to be balanced. You'd probably end up with a $1500 dampener when all was said and done. But you'd have your 5 HP!

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Old 02-06-2003, 07:28 PM   #5
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1 thing for sure is, they do not make a lightweight pulley with the rubber insert because the harmonic-balancer effect is lost due to the weight difference. Is pointless. Therefore I think that a rubberless pulley and a LW with a rubber insert will both cause the same damage (assuming there is any long term damage) if any.
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:01 PM   #6
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Default tuned systems

To a degree your right. The rubber bonded ring type of damper is a tuned system, like a pendulum it depends on both the mass of the mass ring, and its distance from the rotational center ( and to some extent the stiffness of the rubber ring) to determine which frequency it has maximum damping effect. You can replace weight on the ring, by changing the spring effect of the rubber, and its distance from the center.

As all things in manufacturing the stock design most certainly is designed for most cost effective manufacture.

The other thing to keep in mind is there are other designs of dampers that are not tuned systems and damp the most severe motion regardless of frequency, so there should be options for other designs if a vendor wanted to.

I continue to research the issue.

Larry
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Old 02-07-2003, 02:34 PM   #7
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1 thing I wonder, even though I am not really comparing apples to apples. WHat would engine longetivity be like with both, a lighweight flywheel and the lighweight pulleys.
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Old 02-07-2003, 02:46 PM   #8
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My understanding is that with a boxer engine, the pulley is just that, and not used for balancing at all. Some people experience more perceived knock counts by the engine due to a lack of it, but the problem seems pretty isolated. If you do a search, this has been discussed extensively.

Quote:
Originally posted by zacek
1 thing I wonder, even though I am not really comparing apples to apples. WHat would engine longetivity be like with both, a lighweight flywheel and the lighweight pulleys.
I don't think longevity would be a problem, however many people report drivability problems. Due to the lack of inertia, you have to rev the engine higher to get the car moving from a stop and there is a big RPM drop between shifts.
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Old 02-08-2003, 01:57 AM   #9
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Viscous silicone fluid filled systems work really well, haven’t seen one for a rex/suby. Coming out with a light weight version of a pulley is simple, however, the torsion’al vibration characteristics of a particular engine are extremely dynamic; R&D would be prohibitive to develop one for the relatively small Subaru 2.0 aftermarket. Engines that have been around for a long time and see extensive use on racing and hobby fronts get the development done. If you want a lighter, better tuned high performance piece for your 350 you are good ta' go, otherwise its a rough battle finding one that does what it is intended to.



SLR-

edit (sp)- oh my lanta! its filled, not filed... Sry!

Last edited by SuicidalLabRat; 02-08-2003 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 02-08-2003, 09:03 AM   #10
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The GFB pulleys seem pretty nice, and I've read alot about them working very well without any problems. Here is a quote from another forum, from the owner of GFB (I think)....

Quote:
Hi everyone,
The pulleys are certainly a confusing issue, and many comments made here do have merit. We do claim a power increase because it was shown on the dyno to make a power increase. Now, by underdriving the accessories (as shaneblyth pointed out), less power is required to spin them as the RPM increases. Most of the accessories are running at almost full efficiency near idle, so at 6000RPM they are wasting a measurable amount of HP (small, but measurable).

So in this respect, the pulleys do not technically MAKE power, rather they reduce loads that could be considered frictional. This will show up on a dyno as a slight power gain in top end.

The low-down response and gain shown on dyno charts is related to inertia. Because the crank pulley is much lighter it takes less energy to accelerate it. Many of you have commented that they do improve response, which shows on the dyno as a low down power gain. The reason this shows as a power gain is because power is a measure of the amount of work done (torque) in relation to the time it took (RPM). So if the engine goes through its rev range faster (or does more work in the same amount of time) it will show on a dyno as a power increase.

Note that inertia will only ever affect the figures when there is a change in RPM. If you hold the engine at the same revs, it will make no difference at all. The reason being is that inertia by definition is an object's resistance to changes in speed. Therefore the greater the change in RPM, the greater the improvement you will notice. Kind of the same as removing weight from the car. The available power can accelerate a lighter car faster.

I'm not sure that this really clears it up, since you can argue that a pulley doesn't increase power because it adds nothing to the process of burning fuel and air (which is the essence of making power, which explains the comments from MRT gurus). But by reducing inertia and driven loads, the available power is able to help the engine rev freer and accelerate faster. And if it can do that, then it means the car is accelerating faster, which as I mentioned before, will show up on measuring equipment as a power gain. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the reduction in driven loads and inertia frees up available power. Put bascially, if the car feels like it has better throttle response, it MUST be accelerating faster (or at least, earlier) to notice a difference, must it not?

Also note that the 7kW improvement is a figure averaged over the RPM range, not a peak power increase. Low down (around 2000) typically sees a higher increase than top end (sometimes up to 10kW), because the available power of the engine at 2000RPM is about 30% of maximum, and hence the reduction in inertia is more noticeable. It is important to look at WHERE the increases are in the rev range, not just the outright peak power.

Sorry this response was so long winded, hope you are all awake and I hope this does answer some questions! Feel free to comment!

Cheers,
Brett
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Old 02-08-2003, 11:22 AM   #11
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hotrod, one thing to consider doing... go ask the other countries (in their forums).

I'd have to think that there are at least a handful of people in Australia, etc... who have had lightened crank pulleys for 4+ years on the earlier WRXes.
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Old 02-08-2003, 09:30 PM   #12
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Default experience in other countries

Jblaine:

Good point, I just don't spend any time on the other boards so have not done that. It is in any case for my interests a moot point.

The quote above in screaminfast's post pretty well covers the power making process. I choose not to go to the solid pullies because I consider it to not be good engineering practice. I know full well a lot of folks have done it for a long time without having any problems that _they_ attribute to the light pullies. From a historical perspective there is ample evidence that internal combustion engines need dampning and all sorts of odd problems crop up without it. Many that the average person would never associate with the pullies. Engineers have learned these lessons over and over again -- I see no need to participate in another experiment.

More importantly, to be rules compliant with NHRA rules you need one if you run faster than an 11 sec ET. Plain and simple without an SFI approved damper you cannot legally compete once you get into the 10's, for that reason alone we need to find a means to aquire them, because we have a bunch of folks that will be breaking into the 10's this next season.

Larry
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Old 02-09-2003, 09:13 PM   #13
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Default details

1) Yes -- But --- It has no harmonic balancer, it is however a harmonic damper.

The term harmonic balancer has (unfortunately) become a generic term for harmonic damping.

The stock WRX crank pully is a two part construction with an outer mass ring bonded to the hub by a strip of rubber.

No matter what you call it it reduces torsional harmonics on the engine, and your correct it has absolutely nothing to do with the crankshaft rotational balance.

2) No -- The purpose of a true harmonic balancer is to economically achieve rotational balance on some engines that cannot conviently put enough weight on the crank shaft. These are "externally balanced" engines, by putting some of the balance weight on the crank shaft pulley assy.

3) Just because some vw's and the s2000 have no harmonic balance is irrelevent to the discussion. We have several documented cases where high power subaru's have harmonic related problems when they run solid light weight pulleys. Torsional harmonics increase with rpm and hp. What works on a stock engine may not work in a modified engine.

4) see 1 above
5) Only a design engineer at subaru can make that statement with any credibility
6) wrong, proven false on several cars.


Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 02-09-2003 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 02-09-2003, 11:12 PM   #14
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After a quick review of about 5 threads on harmonic dampers, and light weight pullies;

Users who have reported problems that they believe are traceable to pulleys include at least the following folks on this board:

goodfinder
jaygold
azscoobie
torch
jmott
cobb tuning
sophocles
procrustes
mjspiers


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=126439
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=281124
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=132648

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 02-09-2003 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 02-09-2003, 11:42 PM   #15
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Default Yeah right



Tell you what, when you have about 40 years of engine building experience under your belt, come back and we can talk about this.

Larry
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Old 02-10-2003, 09:29 AM   #16
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I think Precentor has shown up at a gunfight carrying a knife.

Mitch
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Old 02-10-2003, 09:39 AM   #17
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I'm not wearing a belt.....I'm sitting here in my boxers....I think all my experience fell off with my pants....
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Old 02-10-2003, 10:34 AM   #18
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it was my understnding that the proublem with lightened pullies had to do with the magnetic properties of aluminum .. not with the absence of the dampener
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Old 02-10-2003, 10:40 AM   #19
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You're not serious are you?

Mitch
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Old 02-10-2003, 12:18 PM   #20
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Have been driving for months with Perrin lightened crank pulley without any adverse effects. Stock one is extremely heavy IMO
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Old 02-10-2003, 06:47 PM   #21
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Default The world is round

My my where to start ---

Okay Brad, it was kind of a busy night at the data center last night so didn't really have time to follow up on this.

I suspect the reason you're pushing this issue is because your running your business tbracing.com on the private for sale classifieds here on this board, and like clubwrx where you at least registred as a vendor, you sell a lot of these things. Well I can understand a sales guy defending his market share. But your not doing a thing for the credibility of your business with this ill concieved move.

Quote:

do yourself a favor and go spend some time learning about motors instead of reading what people write on the internet,
you'll save yourself from looking like a fool
Your words --- lets see where you stand in this area.
Quote:

by the way, they probably experienced timing issues becuase they didn't reinstall their pulley correctly
there is a reason for that little notch on the pulley


If you'd done just a bit of research you'd know that :

a) that little notch you refer to --- its called a key way to folks who work in the mechanical trades.
b) The folks you say probably couldn't properly install the pulley happen to include:
1) one of the top subaru tuning shops in the US -- Cobbs tuning
2) AZScoobie the owner of one of the 3 fastest street drive WRX's in the US -- yes he does his own work
3) Goodfinder the owner of a wrx that is good enough to win major car shows and be featured in magazines.

just to name three.
I won't quote any threads I'll let you go find this stuff out your self.

Quote:

thats odd that you assume I don't
refering to my assuming you don't have 40 years of experience
Actually its not all that odd, since you posted your birthday September 18, 1980 in your profile and in at least one of your posts mentioned you drive like a 21 year old --- I think that was the thread:

Quote:

03-05-2002 08:41 PM
just got my car, bad clutch?
I just got my WRX used with 12000 miles.
My first drive in the car and I could smell a burning smell like I had
thouroughly roasted the tires, when I got out of the car.
Every time I get out it smells like that.
Is the clutch shot or something. I did a search and ppl said that smell is
the "clutch slipping"
Im new to this stuff and this is my first manual transmission but I've
driven them before and I dont ride the clutch at all.
I dont know what it means for a clutch to slip, and I have no clue what to
feel for for if a clutch is bad.
I guess I better go get the car checked out soon.
You didn't seem to have any problems with my advice when I told you how to determine if your clutch was slipping.

Of course the other things that influenced my judgement on you car skills might have also included.

Quote:

10-27-2002 09:42 AM
oil too high?
Anyone know if its bad to have a quart too mcuh oil?
I was leaking a bit of oil due to missing that little washer on the bottom
of the oil pan. I checked my oil level and it looked REALLY low. So I threw
in a quart. Now I'm half way up the dip stick, should I drain my oil or just
ride it out?


03-21-2002 12:33 PM
do I have a problem?
I brought my car in to the subaru service dept. today. I needed an
inspection and oil change, but on the way there I got a CEL.
Kinda odd, but good timing.
So they worked on my car and when they were done I realized they put in
quakerstate motor oil instead of synthetic. I forgot to tell them I use
mobil one but usually garages ask first, expecially on nicer cars. Also they
wrote on the windshield sticker 5w-30 and on the receipt 10w- 30.
...
So...
A) is running around with non-synthetic gonna hurt my car? Can I start
running synthetic again at next oil change?


05-11-2002 08:24 AM
UM, If I'm not mistaken, you guys are calling this stuff carbon kevlar.
I'm almost positive Kevlar is made from 7 layers of weaved carbon fiber.
Therefore, its not two different materials weaved together like someone
above implied. Kevlar is actually carbon fiber, just more layers of it.


Quote:

so what do all your 60 year old buddies think of you hanging out on the ole i-club eh?
40 years, hah, I think I just proved my point
I wont even dignify that one with a reply (he says while stroking his gray beard).

Now lets get to the issue of the balancer itself.

Quote:

AH WRONG

You've apparently never taken your crank pulley off.

The harmonic damper is a completely seperate unit that the crank pulley bolts to.
That may be the case on your mustang, most American V8's are set up that way.

If you'd bothered to crawl under your car you'd see that the belts pass directly around the outside of the mass ring on the crank shaft pully. That is the reason Subaru does not call it an assembly.

It is held on with a single bolt in the snout of the crank shaft.

If you will turn to page ME(DOHC TURBO)-46 in the subaru service manual section 3, perhaps you can point out which illustration on that page shows how you remove the pully grooves from the crank shaft pulley. I know the removal instructions listed by Subaru do not give any indication that there is any way to separate the two.
Of course with your vast experience in auto mechanics perhaps you have a new and novel way of doing things.

Larry
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Old 02-10-2003, 07:55 PM   #22
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*beeeep* *beeeeep*

"Popcorns done!"

*pulls up chair for amusing thread*

"this is getting good, keep going!"
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Old 02-10-2003, 08:43 PM   #23
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Precentor, I don't know what you are looking at, but it can't be the harmonic dampener/crankshaft pulley. Take a look at these pics:





That is what one looks like. The first picture is what the engine sees looking out. The shiny part in the middle where the keyway is cut (look for the blue dot) fits over the snout of the crankshaft where there is a mating key that keeps the dampener from rotating.

Notice there are 3 distinct parts of this dampener: the inner hub (we just talked about that), a rubber ring (the middle circular piece) and an outer ring (where the drive belts ride). It is all one piece as the inner hub and outer ring are bonded together by the rubber ring. The dampener is then held to the crankshaft by a large bolt and washer. The bolt threads into the end of the crankshaft. That's all there is to it.

I think Larry has been reasonable to this point. You owe him an apology. Learn from your elders. These guys have forgotten more about cars than you will ever know.

Mitch
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Old 02-10-2003, 09:28 PM   #24
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Default apology received

Just got pm apology from Precentor
Thanks

You may now continue with the thread
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Old 02-10-2003, 10:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElDuderino
My understanding is that with a boxer engine, the pulley is just that, and not used for balancing at all.
You don't need a harmonic balancer, but you DO need a harmonic damper if you want your engine to last. Lots of people take this item off and replace it with some little dinky one pound aluminum job, fire up their engine, drive for a few days, and say "ah, no problems!" A year or two later, whoever owns the car(assuming the idiot who put the pulley on hasn't wrecked the car,) will be wondering why his engine is shot at what seems like low miles, or maybe it'll fail in a catastrophic fashion; whatever the case may be, not having this piece is very bad unless you're so rich you don't care about your engine.

Here's a suggestion: if you can't find a proper part from Prodrive, Cobb, or STi, then probably this is not a cost effective way of making more power on this engine. These guys have the capabilities to make just about any part they want, after all, and they've been at it quite a while. Just because the Honda guys do it doesn't mean it is the best answer for every car.

There was another guy in the thread somewhere talking about NHRA's rules for going into the 10's. Why not just run the stock damper? Surely the rules don't state that an engine which is internally balanced must have a balancer, and the original pulley IS a damper. Sure, it'll cost you five or ten horsepower and your engine won't look as neat. You know what? If you're in the tens in a WRX, nobody will make fun of your crank pulley. That's a fairly sure bet.
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