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Old 02-15-2003, 03:38 AM   #1
iloveturbos
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Default dyno tune VS street tuning ... you help pick

goal: im looking for the maximum power available for a daily driven car, putting about 400 miles on the car a week

i will be getting my car ECUTEK'd w/ i-speed with a catless up, down, stock 3rd cat, catback, perrin pulley. i hope i can squeeze at least 210ish on the dyno-jet (shiv's dyno).

i-speed charges $750 for the re-flash and includes either a 2-hr street tune session or a 1-hr dyno tune service.

my use of the car 99.9% as a street car, should i opt for the street tune that will focus more on partial throttle values where i will be driving most of the time, or the dyno-tune session. tuning my older honda turbo car, dyno-tuning was really for squeezing out that top HP numbers at WOT. im assuming dyno-tuning the ECUTEK does similar.

but my guess is that since shiv always tunes all cars on the dyno that i guess it's the tried and true way to do it. your take?
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Old 02-15-2003, 04:36 AM   #2
teiva-boy
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You can tune for about 90% of the power on a dyno. But you still need to do some street driving to fix any driveability issues that may arise. There are extra loads and variables while driving that a dyno can't compensate for.
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Old 02-15-2003, 10:39 AM   #3
2MANYCARS
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I had experienced with skywalker when tuning my LINK. What he does is he will be riding with you for about 2 hours doing road tuning, and then dyno tune. If your car's modification is not as crazy as mine, he should nail it down pretty fast.
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Old 02-15-2003, 10:43 AM   #4
ChrisW
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Quote:
Originally posted by teiva-boy
You can tune for about 90% of the power on a dyno. But you still need to do some street driving to fix any driveability issues that may arise. There are extra loads and variables while driving that a dyno can't compensate for.
my car was exclusivly tuned on Vishnu's dyno by Shiv. What drivabilty problems are you refering to?

(I have experiance none since my re-flash in december)
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Old 02-15-2003, 12:39 PM   #5
Vishnu Performance
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Default Re: dyno tune VS street tuning ... you help pick

Quote:
Originally posted by iloveturbos
goal: im looking for the maximum power available for a daily driven car, putting about 400 miles on the car a week

i will be getting my car ECUTEK'd w/ i-speed with a catless up, down, stock 3rd cat, catback, perrin pulley. i hope i can squeeze at least 210ish on the dyno-jet (shiv's dyno).

[snip]

but my guess is that since shiv always tunes all cars on the dyno that i guess it's the tried and true way to do it. your take?
Just an FYI, we have a Dyno Dynamics dyno, not a Dynojet. Our in-house ECU tuning process is quite simpe:

1) We download a baseline map suitable for the car's given state of mods.

2) We then dyno tune it by making and testing the effects of small changes there and there. Both at partial and full throttle. This usually takes up anywhere from 10 to 50 runs depending on the car.

3) Then we take the car out for a couple hard hotlaps to ensure that heatsoak doesn't induce ping, no strange knock sensor activity, no dead spots, etc,. Those who drive with me are well aware that I test the car under pretty extreme conditions.

In summary, if you are after maximum power, you will NOT get there without dyno tuning. This is fact. This is even more of an issue if your car is modified beyond a given "stage set-up" which has, through countless dyno session on different cars, yielded a very appropriate baseline map. The further your car is from these standard stages, the more custom tuning will benefit you.

Street testing is the only way to test that the power you made on the dyno is safe and reliable since it subjects the car to conditions not seen on the dyno (sustained load up to say, 100mph, IC heatsoak, sudden changes of engine load between shifts, etc,.) This is very important for every car. Of course, it's even more vital to cars that make big power.

The whole drivability testing issue, while certainly there, is far more of an issue with stand-alone engine control systems which involve tuning of closed loop fuel control parameters, fuel enrichments, fuel enleanments, cold start, hot start, idle control, injector shut off under deccel, closed loop fuel tuning, etc,-- all of which have a huge impact on general drivability.

With the reflashing approah, these aren't big ssues since those parameters remain stock or just tweaked slightly. I have yet to see a reflashed ECU that, no matter how ill-tuned, didn't exhibit stock-like drivability. Ping and not make power, well, that's another story.

Just my 2c,
shiv
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Old 02-15-2003, 01:53 PM   #6
protouring72
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Default Re: Re: dyno tune VS street tuning ... you help pick

Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance



3) Then we take the car out for a couple hard hotlaps to ensure that heatsoak doesn't induce ping, no strange knock sensor activity, no dead spots, etc,. Those who drive with me are well aware that I test the car under pretty extreme conditions.


shiv
I can vouch for that! My car doesnt know what hit it!
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Old 02-15-2003, 04:46 PM   #7
CupertinoSteve
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ditto my "simpleton" thoughts ... if you got a dyno, you can always street tune. If you only do a street tune, you can not really easily see the little nuances induced by small changes.
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Old 02-15-2003, 11:21 PM   #8
iloveturbos
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Default Re: Re: dyno tune VS street tuning ... you help pick

Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


Just an FYI, we have a Dyno Dynamics dyno, not a Dynojet.
my mistake. i was reading a former post and got the two mixed up.

jump: so another beauty in the ECUTEK approach is that unlike a standalone that requires much more in tuning, the ECUTEK and the stock ECU still has the learning capabilites to smoothen out and "make-up" any part of the map that may be a bit ill-tuned?

is that the success behind sending many people baseline maps and having that run perfectly?
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Old 02-16-2003, 02:18 AM   #9
Vishnu Performance
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Default Re: Re: Re: dyno tune VS street tuning ... you help pick

Quote:
Originally posted by iloveturbos


my mistake. i was reading a former post and got the two mixed up.

jump: so another beauty in the ECUTEK approach is that unlike a standalone that requires much more in tuning, the ECUTEK and the stock ECU still has the learning capabilites to smoothen out and "make-up" any part of the map that may be a bit ill-tuned?

is that the success behind sending many people baseline maps and having that run perfectly?
The real success behind our baselines maps working well in the field is that we've been fortunately enough to dyno test them in so many different WRXs. What we've found is a pretty wide variance between different cars of similar (or even identical) configuration. Having such a huge sample pool has showed us areas in the map which can be especially trouble-prone.

In essence, it has allowed us to gradually refine our maps to account for the lowest common denominator. And being able to quantify everything on the dyno has also showed us areas which can be purposely detuned for maximum safety without sacrificing much performance.

There really isn't any area in the map which is "untuned" any worse than stock. But, yes, the factory computer's closed loop fuel control system is so fast that even big dips in the fuel curve will be filled in before you can even notice a dead spot. It's pretty amazing.

Cheers
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
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Old 02-16-2003, 03:12 AM   #10
David@Vishnu
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sorry I know in hijacking- Shiv I sent ya a pm could you please get back to me on it- Thanks my man
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Old 02-16-2003, 03:39 AM   #11
iloveturbos
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Quote:
Originally posted by MP5
sorry I know in hijacking
no problem. gotta give me that upipe for free now
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Old 02-16-2003, 04:17 AM   #12
David@Vishnu
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Quote:
Originally posted by iloveturbos


no problem. gotta give me that upipe for free now
hehehe well be in contact soon! nekard can vouch for me
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Old 02-18-2003, 01:05 AM   #13
skywalker
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I personally like doing road tuning first for a few reasons.

1) You nail down most of the problems area's if any right away by the feel of the car. Plus this is normal driving, so you can really nail down a solid safe map, no pinging, no hesitations, stop and go, corners when you are halfway on the throttle, etc...
2) Saves some money, as dyno tuning costs quite a bit more then just tuning time. Plus you can keep the car at optimal levels all the time while driving. On the dyno it is much harder to keep the car cool. Though Vishnu's does work well at keeping the car at normal driving conditions.
3) It also saves my ears and from getting lots of nice healty fumes in the lungs.

After all that bring it to the dyno for about 5-10 runs and it should be almost set. You will notice about only about 15% increase in Hp from there at most. Then bring it back on the road for a few hard runs to check for any issues. Then be on your way...
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