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Old 04-10-2003, 02:48 PM   #51
RafalW
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
PS. I have some good video tape of the STI being flicked through three successive low speed turns at willow springs (from last weekend) with all four tires light up, pointing 90 deg. from the way it was moving. Lots of immediate torque and the center active diff makes things that (and donuts, of course) come natural.
Gimme gimme gimme gimme!!
And could you comment about seats, please?
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Old 04-11-2003, 12:36 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by dlowman


Shiv,
Will you do us a favor. Try to drive it like Paul suggests and see if it makes a difference I think he has a valid point. He has driven alot of these things in the past.
I think Shiv, and the other drivers there, did. The problem is that it has a much steeper learning curve than the Evo or WRX. In some ways, the dire understeer of the previous STi versions was one of the reasons that the UK press called it the best point-to-point car available, for it is easier to push an understeering car to it's limits than an oversteering car. A properly setup car with throttle-controlled oversteer will be ultimately faster when all factors are equal, but that is in the hands of an experienced, skilled driver. There is a reason so many drivers, even the good ones, have moved from RWD to AWD cars in the past 10 years.

The new STi straddles that line between the traditional RWD approach and the current AWD wundercars. It will take time to learn the nuances of the car, much more so than people would think - it caught me out fairly early, and I personally would need a couple of days at a track, hopefully with an experienced pro, to use it to it's full potential. And I am much quicker to adjust than a lot of drivers. The Japanese tests here bear that out - different tests by different, professional drivers have either the Evo or the STi at front, with no clear winner across the board. It's somewhat interesting that the Puma Evo race car driver was faster in the standard STi vs. the standard Evo GSR with AYC/ACD - upon reflection, that is probably because the standard STi with DCCD-a is actually closer to his race car setup than the Evo in street form is.

You really have to test drive these cars back-to-back. Pick the one that feels best to you, not the one that your ego thinks it must have.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Old 04-11-2003, 01:52 AM   #53
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paul as always it is a good thing you are in Japan that way i can always find you when i can't sleep

on a different note, what do you think of the USDM EVO setup as far as no ACD? a lot of people say it actually makes the car more fun to drive and that it is a good thing we got the rs diffs and not the ACD. does this makes sense to you at all?
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Old 04-11-2003, 03:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
PS. I have some good video tape of the STI being flicked through three successive low speed turns at willow springs (from last weekend) with all four tires light up, pointing 90 deg. from the way it was moving. Lots of immediate torque and the center active diff makes things that (and donuts, of course) come natural.

Cheers,
shiv
*droooooooooooooooooooooool*

I want to drive to Vishnu just to see that vid
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Old 04-11-2003, 05:54 AM   #55
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Paul,

Whats the difference between DCCD-a and ACD?... are they
similar in function (distributing front/rear torque split)??
On top of ACD, JDM EVO also get AYC.. which splits rear left/right
torque... The new super AYC now can split twice as much torque
as the older EVO7 AYC unit upon acceleration.. which help the
car power out of the corner... (if I understand correctly, that is..)
Wouldn't the ACD+AYC setup even closer (or better) to a RWD
with LSD?

I brought this up because from what I could see on the Best
Motoring video of EVO8 vs STi... EVO8s seem to have less understeer than STi in the video.. Also, on the video, I really cant
see the RWD-oversteer that you speak of either...

Just wondering what do you think...
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Old 04-11-2003, 07:22 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by mr. blonde
on a different note, what do you think of the USDM EVO setup as far as no ACD? a lot of people say it actually makes the car more fun to drive and that it is a good thing we got the rs diffs and not the ACD. does this makes sense to you at all?
No, what they are saying is that without the AYC the car is more fun to drive, not the ACD. The ACD works quite well, it's the reason Subaru has the DCCD. AYC works quite well, too, but it also imparts a feeling of artificiality to the handling. You see, fast doesn't always equal fun, for a lot of people, fun is a feeling of controlling the car, not just being along for the ride.

Cheers,

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Old 04-11-2003, 07:32 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by JT-KGY
Wouldn't the ACD+AYC setup even closer (or better) to a RWD
with LSD?
I brought this up because from what I could see on the Best
Motoring video of EVO8 vs STi... EVO8s seem to have less understeer than STi in the video.. Also, on the video, I really cant
see the RWD-oversteer that you speak of either...
Well, first off, my opinion of Best Motoring has gone down as my experience with the cars in question has gone up. Pure and simple, Best Motoring is great entertainment. They are not, however, any reliable guide towards what cars actually handle best - when you have different drivers in different cars, what you end up with is a contest of drivers, not cars.

ACD and DCCD are indeed similar. In theory, an ACD-only Evo should handle much like the DCCD-only STi. And from some reports of European Evo owners (of older Evo's), ACD-only with good front/rear diffs is indeed their preference.

AYC is a technically sound idea, but the problem is twofold. 1) It feels artificial. 2) Guess what one of it's functions is? Stopping you from drifting. Anti-Yaw Control means just that - stop the car from yawing too far.

So no.1 is a problem for certain people because of feedback. I'm one of them. Feedback is god. My butt telling my hands and feet what to do is hardwired in now. Somebody at the other end telling the car otherwise doesn't turn my crank. Don't even get me started on the 350Z....

No.2 is one of driver skill. Highly skilled drivers may (would?) end up hating the AYC because it attempts to do something that, yet again, is hardwired in to their systems. And in fact, since a good driver is proactive, not reactive, AYC may slow them down.

The top cars in the tuner battles here, when we are talking STi and Evo, usually have the DCCD/ACD/AYC systems stripped out and good front and rear differentials in instead.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:09 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma


Well, first off, my opinion of Best Motoring has gone down as my experience with the cars in question has gone up. Pure and simple, Best Motoring is great entertainment.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Still I'd love to see the video. I noticed that the STI and GSR's were close but the SPEC C turned in the fastest lap.
Sure it's a test of the drivers as much as the cars....any good,
evenly matched fun race is.

Looking at the specs (all we have now) I have a hard time imagining a US EVO keeping up with the US STI on a road course.
It'd have to be significantly quicker in the corners to counter the power deficit. And with just a rear dif, 50% of power going to the fronts and no Limited diff in front...I don't see how.
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:50 AM   #59
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Ah well, in the end, when two cars are closely matched, it gets down to who's driving what. I may have left too negative of an impression of Best Motoring, for they do give you a general idea of the cars capabilities. But unless it's the same driver lapping different cars, the very fact that different drivers would have seconds of a difference in lap times if they were all to drive the same car is an indicator of how accurate a Best Motoring video is going to be.

It's all relative. For professional race drivers, and even the semi-professional automotive journalists, small differences in handling and feel are magnified when an opinion of those differences are seeked after.

For instance, an STi 7 had, say, an understeer factor of about 9 out of a 100. In comparison, an American rent-a-car with 3 million-mile concrete rubber has a factor of about 100/100 of understeer, while a Corolla, hrm, 50/100. Now, the Evo may have a factor of 5/100, an STi 7 that 9/100, and the Corolla 50/100. So, of those 3 numbers, neither the STi nor the Evo have any understeer that you would notice relative to the Corolla. But, on the other hand, if you are at the track with the STi 7 and the Evo 7, relative to each other, you would call the STi 7 an understeering pig when writing up an article. And, to be honest, when you are at a track and actually driving the machines in question, it is. Sort of.

The problem is that you, the public, may never, ever experience that "dire" understeer. In fact, you may appreciate it, because of the confidence it inspires when you do manage to push the car to the 7 or 8/10's range. That's the problem of conveying a message - what message do you want to actually convey?

Me, I'm obviously not getting paid for this.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 04-11-2003, 11:00 AM   #60
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Shiv,
Have you dynoed the sti yet? Can you tell us what its making at the wheels? Or would that be part of the press embargo?

Thanks,
Dan
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Old 04-11-2003, 11:21 AM   #61
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thanks Paul for the great info!!!!

i have decided that if i will endup with the EVO i will change the frint and rear diffs to some cusco units and than i won't feel so bad about the ACD
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Old 04-11-2003, 11:21 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by dlowman
Shiv,
Have you dynoed the sti yet? Can you tell us what its making at the wheels? Or would that be part of the press embargo?

Thanks,
Dan
I can't wait to see dyno results My hunch is that the STi driveline will be less lossy due to the DCCD. I think if a stock WRX makes 170whp, then a WRX with STi driveline will make more than 170whp. Especially if you put DCCD in manual and put 65% of the torque to the rear, which is what you would want to do for straight highway cruising in good weather.

I'm thinking of it in this respect; if you could put 100% of the torque to the rear wheels, then you would have driveline loss comparable to a RWD vehicle, if you put 50/50 of the torque to front/rear, then you have losses comparable to typical AWD vehicles.

So Shiv, reguler old dyno results aren't good enough anymore, you have to make a graph of maximum HP as a function of DCCD rear/front torque split
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Old 04-11-2003, 12:57 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corn-Picker


I can't wait to see dyno results My hunch is that the STi driveline will be less lossy due to the DCCD. I think if a stock WRX makes 170whp, then a WRX with STi driveline will make more than 170whp. Especially if you put DCCD in manual and put 65% of the torque to the rear, which is what you would want to do for straight highway cruising in good weather.

I'm thinking of it in this respect; if you could put 100% of the torque to the rear wheels, then you would have driveline loss comparable to a RWD vehicle, if you put 50/50 of the torque to front/rear, then you have losses comparable to typical AWD vehicles.

So Shiv, reguler old dyno results aren't good enough anymore, you have to make a graph of maximum HP as a function of DCCD rear/front torque split

I doubt that it works that way.

Anyway, I've always thought the driveline loss issue of awd compared to fwd was somewhat overrated. It seems to me that
the whole idea of comparing whp between 2wd and 4wd is something of a misnomer.
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Old 04-11-2003, 07:29 PM   #64
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I agree with Paul on the best motoring reference.
You have to watching enough of it to realize...sometimes the races are for entertainment purposes, while providing the essential impression of the feature cars.

They do a good job telling you about the car characteristics. Sometimes the pros and cons vs previous models. But hardly ever against a different make. As for the EVO and STI comparison....after watching the last DVD for god knows how many times. You'll notice the driver in the end is the deciding factor. Tsuchiya hated the EYo with AYC.. the new STI vcd, Nakaya just out drove the other guy, whom imo is lesser skilled anyways. But what you will see is how Nakaya push the car much harder entering the cornering and using the advantage of the DCCD, also taking a more aggressive line because of it.
On the other hand, the other guy is enter the cornering much slower, and more traditional awd approach.

sometimes numbers doesn't tell the whole story but it does sell cars and articles...and ahem DVDs.
As for the over criticism on understeering. I whether have the general masses on the street reacting to understeer then oversteer.
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by IronChefWRX
Tsuchiya hated the EYo with AYC.. the new STI vcd, Nakaya just out drove the other guy, whom imo is lesser skilled anyways. But what you will see is how Nakaya push the car much harder entering the cornering and using the advantage of the DCCD, also taking a more aggressive line because of it.
On the other hand, the other guy is enter the cornering much slower, and more traditional awd approach.
Of course Tsuchiya hates the AYC... dont think Drift King will
like cars that can't drift..
Nakaya is, imo, the person to drive the EVOs... he seems to know
how to drive it best.... though in the newest (April) vcd... he was
last place with the EVO8 RS 6 speed...


Btw.. I didn't know who you were talking about.. until I look them
up..
http://www.bestmotoring.jp/caster/index.html
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Old 04-12-2003, 04:31 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma
The problem is that you, the public, may never, ever experience that "dire" understeer.
Oh, ive experienced "dire" understeer on several occasions (granted not with my car in its current state) and its why I wont ever own another FWD car ever again, along with torque steer
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Old 04-12-2003, 04:38 AM   #67
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In case anyone wants to know what DCCD does in a corner, this might help (johnfelstead's TypeRA V-Limited):







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Old 04-12-2003, 01:47 PM   #68
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DCCD working with a skilled driver You gotta love it
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Old 04-12-2003, 02:47 PM   #69
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It looks like his rear end is sliding out on him. How is that good?
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Old 04-12-2003, 03:38 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaypride
It looks like his rear end is sliding out on him. How is that good?
It looks like hella fun and skill to me
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Old 04-12-2003, 04:01 PM   #71
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Quote:
It looks like hella fun and skill to me
It is a display of control during a slide. Sort of an anti-point and shoot! The driver isn't attempting to find the best groove for getting through the corner. It's a show.
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Old 04-12-2003, 08:44 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaypride
It looks like his rear end is sliding out on him. How is that good?
It appears someone is not too familiar with the consept of drifting. It is sometime the fastest method to get around a corner. Note, in the last picture, the direction of his car relative to the direction of the tire marks. He's right in line. He didn't lose the rear, he threw it out on purpose.
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Old 04-12-2003, 10:52 PM   #73
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Quote:
It appears someone is not too familiar with the consept of drifting. It is sometime the fastest method to get around a corner.
Perhaps the fastest in a rally where there is no chance of worrying about tire life. It's also good to know you can do this and not plow yourself with understreer off of the road and into a ditch.
It is a display of control. You can do this sorta thing in a WRX at a stop, make a 45 degree angle right with the power up. The car drifts under power, but wherever pointed once turned it goes in that direction. These cars ROCK.
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Old 04-13-2003, 12:51 AM   #74
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It's odd to me that these posts haven't pointed out one incredibly obvious fact:
2.5L
Forged pistons
v.
2.0L
Cast pistons

We all know a goodly portion of these cars will be modified for increased power output, and I can't imagine how the EVO will ultimately compete dollar for dollar with a larger, stronger engine. Yes, I am fully aware that the EVO engine is strong, but in stock US trim, I dare say it has little on the stock trim US-STI-to-be.

Also, how would you guys compare the seats? I believe I prefer the STI dash to the Evo, but the Evo seriously holds the exterior edge in my mind.
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Old 04-13-2003, 03:30 AM   #75
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I also think that the EVO edges out the STi in terms of looks. I'm not really worried about that though. I will be on the inside looking out .
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