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Old 04-15-2003, 02:53 PM   #1
metoo
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Default STi testers... Just answer me this.

1st gear....can you effortlessly downshift to 1st without double clutching at speeds at least up to 10mph? When I say effortless, I mean just as easy as an upshift.

Before anyone starts talking smack about, "no car can do this," I'll let you know that EVERY manual transmission car that I've driven has no problem in this area. Not a '99 Mustang, nor a '99 Z28, nor my '92 Cherokee with 200,000 miles on it, nor the Evo, nor any other manual I've driven.

I know you guys (reporters and the like) can't say a lot about the car right now, but this should be a reportable feature you can share now. So, does the STi have this handicap like the WRX?
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Old 04-15-2003, 04:01 PM   #2
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yes i would like to know this as well. all my manual cars were able to shift into first at low speeds as well. I noticed this when test driving a wrx you could not do this and it was annoying.
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Old 04-15-2003, 04:23 PM   #3
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The s4 suffers from this as well. In order to get into first you need to double clutch and slowly feel it in. Its nothing like a nice 3 series or corvette where you can heel toe downshift right into first consistently.
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Old 04-15-2003, 04:59 PM   #4
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You enjoy killing you syncro's much?

I must ask, what is the point?

of _COURSE_ you can shift down into one if you heel-toe to get the engine up to speed first, and quite frankly, that's the ONLY time you should be doing that.

American car's, especially older ones, have much taller 1st gears, this is A- because the engines have more torque (in general) than import cars and B- because in general they have fewer gears than the equivolent imports...

But-

why?

I am an SCCA member and regular autocrosser, I am racking my brain and I can only think of _1_ situation EVER while driving that you would want to cut a high-performance import down to first, and that would be a 15mph 180 degree tight hairpin on an autoX course, and even then, I'd only consider it if there was no way in HELL I could keep the engine from bogging around the turn (and there are plenty of other options). In two years competing (not many by some people's standards, I know, but...) I have seen *1* single turn that warranted a 2-1 shift and this was an extremely tricky tightening-slolom followed by a 180 degree spin around the final cone with two gates placed right there at the end at right angles to make _SURE_ you didn't slip out a bit...

obviously I am talking about an extreme situation, and in that case, a heel-toe downshift into 1st at the Apex of the turn was necessary...

But...

When would you ever need to do this in day-to-day driving?

1st gear is for starting the car from a standstill only... If you are in motion, even if its only a tiny bit of motion, go to 2nd... if you're in an AutoX, stay in 2nd (and avoid shifting it at all possible...)

I mean, I guess what I'm saying is, that's nice the american car's you're used to could do it, but Why the hell would you ever want too? It puts you at extreme danger of over-revving the engine (since 1st in most cars is EXTREMELY short), it wears the hell out of your transmission syncros, and (pretty much)worthless... (especially if the STi has a flat torque-curve like most of us expect)

I mean... I could be missing something, but my e36 BMW's syncro's lock out 1st while the car is moving, as does my friends e46 M3, and in fact pretty much any high-performance car I've ever driven... and I can't see why that's a problem...

All Imho of course...

-Scott
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Old 04-15-2003, 05:06 PM   #5
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my super sports sedan locks me out of 1st also

I'm used to it.
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Old 04-15-2003, 05:08 PM   #6
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can you in the 6 speed yes... hell you can in the sti ra 5 speed... but why is right... its most deffenitly a granny gear....
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Old 04-15-2003, 05:31 PM   #7
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Arrow 1st gear issues

Quote:
1st gear is for starting the car from a standstill only... If you are in motion, even if its only a tiny bit of motion, go to 2nd...
This may have been brought up due to problems some are having getting the car into 1st after driving it on the freeway for a long period then having to stop. Reports were that they were having difficulty getting the car into 1st w/o some grinding.
1st gear in the STi is a real stump-puller and in most situations it may in fact not need to be used on the fly. But if you live where there are mountains or high hills and someone ahead of you with an automatic is going slow the car may bog too much in 2nd gear. Stopping to place it into 1st gear may not be an option if there's someone behind you. So, I can see the concern for some folks. I know I need to put the car in 1st on the fly nearly daily, so it is an issue for some. There is a way to do it tenderly on the WRX, but on the STi, only those who have run into the situation where it is necessary to use 1st while moving would know at this time.
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Old 04-15-2003, 05:31 PM   #8
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metoo

Short answer, Yes
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Old 04-15-2003, 05:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1st gear issues

Quote:
Originally posted by HFTuRbo

I know I need to put the car in 1st on the fly nearly daily, so it is an issue for some. There is a way to do it tenderly on the WRX, but on the STi, only those who have run into the situation where it is necessary to use 1st while moving would know at this time.
If I may ask... where and how do you find yourself in a need to ever do this?

I've logged close to 200k miles now on manual cars and I've _NEVER_ needed to get into 1 while already moving forward... (and the 1st two years of my driving were done in a 90hp BMW 320i that had NO power)...

-Scott
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Old 04-15-2003, 06:00 PM   #10
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The 6MT has a double synchro first gear, the EVO 5 spd has a triple synchro first.

They both have triple synchro 2nd gear.
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Old 04-15-2003, 06:02 PM   #11
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erm.. it is a legitimate question. when i take the city roads to go home from work, there is a yield sign into a busy road, and most people generally creep forward and then scoot wherever there's a gap in the traffic. at 5mph in 2nd, the wrx does not scoot, it oozes. if you come to a complete stop, you will piss off the people behind you.

another situation happens fairly often - slowing down for a left turn in a 4 lane road, in second gear at about 5-10mph. a gap opens in the oncoming traffic. most people take that gap, and in 1st gear, i would have no problem hitting the gap. in second gear, i usually do not make that turn and risk getting rear-ended/honked at rather than oozing across two lanes of oncoming traffic.

no i don't constantly cut people off. situations do arise when i need to get into first at low speed, esp. with the wrx being gutless in the low ranges.

now the RS, that's a different story
raj
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Old 04-15-2003, 07:27 PM   #12
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My experience has been the same in a GS-R and a Prelude-- they doesn't like to go into first at say 5mph. Also, sometimes after just sitting at a light they don't like to go into first at all-- if it is a slight hill I let it roll a bit first, but if not I have to double clutch once in a while. There are some cars I have seen that never seem to have this problem, though, like my friend's Jetta, or another friend's Jeep (which is an insanely easy car to shift-- it won't stall even at a standstill, in gear...weird-- they guy at the offroad course kept yelling at me because I kept trying to take it out of gear at very low speed.)

As for the situations described by Rajito, I usually let it "ooze" in 2nd or if I have a lot of energy I go proactive and double clutch into 1st. In general, I don't find it too annoying. I have seen a guy at the track putting his NSX in 1st around a slow, tight turn; sometimes it sounds horrible and I actually feel bad for the car...

Eric
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Old 04-15-2003, 08:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by bmrboy325is
You enjoy killing you syncro's much?

I must ask, what is the point?

of _COURSE_ you .........formance car I've ever driven... and I can't see why that's a problem...

All Imho of course...

-Scott
Too much to read. Simply put, the WRX under 2000rpm has the torque of a hamster wheel with a sleep walking hamster in it. First gear is a must for daily driving in this car. Other cars have a lot more umph in 2nd, so it is a whole lot less necessary. Just read rajito's post. He snatched the words write out of my mouth.

and as far as killing synchros. My Cherokee has 200,000 miles the original first gear synchros. As far as imports go. I had absolutely no issue on the Evo. Went in smooth as butter.

Quote:
Originally posted by rajito
erm.. it is a legitimate question. when i take the city roads to go home from work, there is a yield sign into a busy road, and most people generally creep forward and then scoot wherever there's a gap in the traffic. at 5mph in 2nd, the wrx does not scoot, it oozes. if you come to a complete stop, you will piss off the people behind you.

another situation happens fairly often - slowing down for a left turn in a 4 lane road, in second gear at about 5-10mph. a gap opens in the oncoming traffic. most people take that gap, and in 1st gear, i would have no problem hitting the gap. in second gear, i usually do not make that turn and risk getting rear-ended/honked at rather than oozing across two lanes of oncoming traffic.

no i don't constantly cut people off. situations do arise when i need to get into first at low speed, esp. with the wrx being gutless in the low ranges.

now the RS, that's a different story
raj
OMG You stole the words directly out of my head! Do you know how often I've been honked at for stopping to go into first and for staying in 2nd at 5mph when the light suddenly changed green just as I was about to stop? I also got sick of telling people (servicemen, and valets) not to shift into first from a roll.

I rode in a turbo'd RS that had much less peak hp than my WRX, but the torque in his car was SICK! He yeilded at about 5mph in second and just rolled ont he gas. My mouth dropped. This experience and the poor tranny design of the WRX lead me to sell it for an STi. Even if the 1st gear thing is a problem, at least there will be little need to do it with the 2.5 under the hood.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wombat North
metoo

Short answer, Yes
Due to the way I asked the question in the original post, are you saying YES, as in "yes, it will easily go into 1st," or are you saying it as in, "yes, it has the same handicap as the WRX?"
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Old 04-15-2003, 08:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Re: 1st gear issues

Quote:
Originally posted by bmrboy325is


If I may ask... where and how do you find yourself in a need to ever do this?
Scott, you've clearly never driven a WRX at an auto-X or in traffic.

I can think of many times around 180 degree hairpin turns on the auto-x course where in second gear, the WRX drops below 3000rpms.

When you're in second at 2500rpms and you increase the throttle from 1/3 to full exiting the turn, there is a major disappointment in acceleration all the way up to 3500RPMs.

The WRX has a VERY tall first gear. 42 MPH. and second goes up to 62MPH. Take that with your 2.0 liter lower compression econo engine below 3000RPMs, and you have a serious lack of acceleration.

Because of this you are always tempted to try to get it into first, otherwise a ford escort is going to out accel you from a 20 mph turn. Unfortunately, the wrx will not shift into first without matching revs. Kinda of a pain, but I can live with it. BUT, I've owned this car for 2 years and I still grind it into first occasionally rolling 5 mphs at a stoplight. You think I'd learn, but its so pathetic trying to get moving is second gear from sub 15 mph, it just makes me want to downshift.

-BrianK
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Old 04-15-2003, 08:25 PM   #15
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yeah, that bogdown or powerless state of the WRX in the low rpms is a very serious and even dangerous situation, special when making those left turns in between traffic gaps. I mean, what if u just make within a nickel of time, and then your car just bogs down. Is very scary. Also very very often , when coming to a stop to a red light and doing about 15mph and then green hits, for some reason if I was to shift into 2nd (for fear not to make it into 1st) and take off the other cars would just catch up and leave me behind (under normal circumstances) all the time while my wrx strives to overcome the low torque range. That is EMBARRASING!!!!

On another note, that Japanese 1 hour special on the old and new STi and that also had a 5 car competition between 3 sti's and 2 EVOS. I forgot the name, there was a couple links in this site about 2/3 weeks old. They show those drivers shift into 1st. several times (without d-clutching) and for what I could tell the car was moving faster than 10mph.
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Old 04-15-2003, 08:52 PM   #16
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Two things that are not being discussed here.

1) This is the STi 2.5-litre. It is not the WRX 2.0-litre. Between the extra displacement and AVCS, low-end grunt is not a problem. I think I'll repeat this again, because it seems to be passing right over people's heads with a loud woooosh. The STi is not a WRX turbo.

2) This is the STi 2.5-litre 6-speed with it's really low gearing. Even if you could shift into 1st, which you can, you won't need to. You can easily take off from a stop in 2nd gear. In fact, in the words of an unnamed, unknown, untalked-about, we-don't-know-his-furry-face-at-all tester, he wishes that the first 2 gears were much, much taller because the engine is so torquey, your impression (and time) of/in them in non-existent.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Old 04-15-2003, 09:33 PM   #17
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Paul, thanks for the input-

No, I've never driven a WRX on an AutoX course, that's for sure... but my 320i had a whopping 90hp and peak, so I'm used to a truly gutless car...

I don't mean to undermine anyone, I guess I'm just curious... Different style of driving I suppose...

I for one never downshift (period) without matching revs... I guess its kinda habit that I got in to, it keeps me heel-toeing around town, keeps driving fun... Granted, the e36 pedals are perfectly placed for it and I don't know about the WRX's but... I'll find out what works if/when I go STi...

I didn't think about yeild signs (or stop signs for that matter...) I do suppose I do shift into one without coming to a completely stop... I guess I never worry about it because I'm also always matching revs anyway... But good point.

briank -
I have always practiced clutching-in on turns that bring me down too much below my power-curve to keep my engine from bogging... Clutch-in, apex the turn while giving a bit of gas to keep my revs up, then drop the clutch as soon as I'm through (no shifting). Yes the sudden 4k rpm drop in 2nd wears the clutch, but it keeps my speed up without wasting the time do do a full shift and keeps the run nice and smooth.

I learned this technique from a Turbo-RX driver - he said it was absolutely crucial for him to keep his revs up on a run, and he found this was the "quickest" way to do it, and it seems to work well.

Any idea how well that would work on a WRX? just a curiousity...

Sorry about the novels... its amazing, I can write pages on here while my biopsych essay in front of me is still on its first paragraph....

-Scott
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Old 04-15-2003, 10:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma
...
The STi is not a WRX turbo.
...
Since the WRX has a turbo, would that be a twin-turbo?
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Old 04-16-2003, 12:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by bmrboy325is
Paul, thanks for the input-

No, I've never driven a WRX on an AutoX course, that's for sure... but my 320i had a whopping 90hp and peak, so I'm used to a truly gutless car...

-Scott
Ahhhhhhh, now I see. For furture reference, make you have an understanding of what everyone is talking about before you go off all half-cocked. If you have not lived in a WRX, you won't know what we are complaining about. Though I have never driven a 320i, even with 90hp, I'd be willing to bet that it would pull on a WRX from a roll in 2nd gear from a 5mph start, if only for 50 ft. That 50 feet is everything in daily traffic driving. And heaven-forbid if there is a bigger turbo on the WRX.

Now back to the STi.
Thanks shirokuma. I have no confusion of the two. Like I said, that is why I sold my WRX to get an STi. I would be incredibly suprised if the STi engine wasn't strong in the lower RPM's. Just due to how I like to shift into first before coming to a complete stop, I would like the ability to do so.

just changed "was" to "wasn't".....oops

Last edited by metoo; 04-16-2003 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 04-16-2003, 01:23 AM   #20
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i agree u need to shift to 1st once a while...like the stop sign and speed bump situation...

however, u should NEVER try to push it in 1st...u should double-clutch or simply rev-match it!!

in crawling speed (below 20km/h), i've no problem getting into 1st...never grind or anything...u can almost feel if the car can go into 1st or not...well i can..

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Old 04-16-2003, 04:03 AM   #21
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I have no problem putting into 1st while car moving in low
speeds... 5-10mph... I do have to blip the throttle a bit though
to make it go in easier... My car has very low geared 1st
(97 E36 M3)... 4.21 with a 3.23 rear....though I don't need to
do it often since 2nd is usually torquey enough to get me going...

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Old 04-16-2003, 04:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by bmrboy325is
I am an SCCA member and regular autocrosser, I am racking my brain and I can only think of _1_ situation EVER while driving that you would want to cut a high-performance import down to first, and that would be a 15mph 180 degree tight hairpin on an autoX course, and even then, I'd only consider it if there was no way in HELL I could keep the engine from bogging around the turn (and there are plenty of other options). In two years competing (not many by some people's standards, I know, but...) I have seen *1* single turn that warranted a 2-1 shift and this was an extremely tricky tightening-slolom followed by a 180 degree spin around the final cone with two gates placed right there at the end at right angles to make _SURE_ you didn't slip out a bit...
You mean like this corner? - http://home.surewest.net/ddman/KostasAutoxMuffler.wmv (870kb, so dont worry about the D/L)

We have corners like that alot around these parts in our autocross circuits. I also have find the need to go into 1rst gear alot in stop and go traffic, and I did notice the WRX's inability to downshift to first, which my car does not have trouble with and I have even shorter gearing than the WRX and a much lower redline. The WRX does need to be able to get into 1rst gear at critical times due to the turbo. I need it as well, due to lack of power The STI probably wont need it as much though, with all that torque
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Old 04-16-2003, 05:42 AM   #23
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I notice that the STi shifts into 1st only when applying the brake (gravity assisted I guess) and blipping the throttle. If the revs are within ~500 it will go in fairly easy.

Last edited by it_x; 04-17-2003 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 04-16-2003, 06:12 AM   #24
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Arrow Weeee!

Quote:
I notice that the STi shifts into 1st only when applying the brake (gravity assisted I guess) and blipping the throttle. If the revs are within ~500 it will go in fairly easy.
Wow, an STi driver! Thanks for the input. We do not have the chance to drive one for months. Anyway the same action is required on the WRX to get it into 1st.

Quote:
If I may ask... where and how do you find yourself in a need to ever do this?
My ride to work is back roads, lots of low speed turns, hills, stop on left turn-yield going right, etc. If I were ever the only person on the road 1st would only be needed from a stop. A right turn up a hill to a yield sign with someone in front of you in a slow moving vehicle tend to make the tranny and engine bog too much as was stated by others in posts above.
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Old 04-16-2003, 09:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma
In fact, in the words of an unnamed, unknown, untalked-about, we-don't-know-his-furry-face-at-all tester, he wishes that the first 2 gears were much, much taller because the engine is so torquey, your impression (and time) of/in them in non-existent.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
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Well, some of us know who he is.





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