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View Poll Results: Stealing the STI in it's debut?
No chance in hell! 15 31.25%
Slight chance. 13 27.08%
For sure! 20 41.67%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:18 PM   #26
T-WRX Racer
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1st off I am getting my STI for 500 off MSRP. I have that in writting. And I am First on the list.

Secondly, I don't think the STI will be considered a "collectors" car right away. I don't think any car can be considered so, until it has proven its' self to the owners and press. And let's face it, why would a car you can go buy new off a lot be a collectors car. Don't get me wrong, The STI will be in the top 5 performance cars availible in the US. (Taking price into consideration)
Maybe after a few years when the car has built a solid reputation, then it may very well be a collectors car.
A quick look at the term Collectors car..... What does it mean? If you own more than one car, You could call yourself a car collector. And what ever cars you have would be your "collector cars"
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
1st off I am getting my STI for 500 off MSRP. I have that in writting. And I am First on the list.
scenario A) did the dealership guarantee you in writing that you will be the first one contacted when the very first STi rolls off the truck, and that they will sell it to you on your terms? also, did you get an authentic sales reciept with the terms written out and signed by the dealershp, preferably upper management? if so, can you take a clear, color picture of it and post it here?

scenario B) or did the dealer guarantee you in writing that you will get the car on your terms when/if it becomes available, based on your terms?

you have an oppertunity to shut this thread down if you can provide credible evidence, like i described.
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xander1281


The STi is hardly a collector’s car....

The reason why we are getting the STi with all the "goodies" on it is because those "goodies" are now much cheaper to produce and are more widely available. The cost of R&D has been recouped and the parts can now be sold at a cheaper price while still making a profit.

Look at cars that cost $50,000 ten years ago. Those cars had all the latest gadgets and innovations with a price to match. We can now buy cars with those same gadgets and innovations for much less and the $50,000 cars have new stuff for us to yearn for....
We have just been around long enough now to see some feature we wanted in the past available now at for the price we want to pay for it.

Ain't that the truth!
Here are some notable examples of that historical lineage;

* Sodium filled exhaust valves > A racing innovation first applied by Porsche to a production vehicle with the '89 '964' C4 > '04 STi
* DCCD > A Porsche innovation applied to the Paris-Dakar '84 911 "AllRoad" > later to become the Porsche '959' > '04 STi
* Variable ratio hi-torque VCD > '81 Audi 'Coupe GT' AWD > '04 STi
* HID's > BMW innovation first used in production on the '91 750iL 'Limousine' > '04 STi
* ABS > An innovation used on aircraft in the '50's and first introduced to production vehicles by Mercedes-Benz on the 'S Class' in '85 > '04 STi
* Variable Valve Timing > Honda/Acura '91 'NSX' with "VTEC" > '04 STi
* Big A$$ and functional rear wing/stabilizer > '69 & '70 Dodge 'Charger Daytona' and '70 Plymouth 'Superbird' > '04 STi

The 'trickle down effect' takes time though it works to the advantage of everyone. Individually the above vehicles were all expensive innovators for their time and are today 'collectors items'.

The '04 STi has all of the above technical innovations and more which are the result of extensive R&D which then trickle down to we regular consumers.

Long live tehcnical innovation...
Long live Subaru.

- Janq
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Old 04-22-2003, 05:36 PM   #29
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Jang--- Sodium filled valves I think have been around for a long time-I'm pretty sure the original motor in my 1969 Porsche 911S had them!
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Old 04-22-2003, 06:49 PM   #30
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Not as my memory recalls...but after dinner I'll check some of my sources (old parts & service manuals) and double check.

But even so, if you are correct and I'm wrong...its still a relative rarety reserved for 'he-perf' vehicles...no trickling down to the common man.

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Old 04-22-2003, 08:04 PM   #31
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this link says 89 also. http://autozine.kyul.net/911/911_81.htm

I'm a porsche fan, so I was just curious. I'm just bringing more info, it could be wrong also.
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Old 04-22-2003, 10:25 PM   #32
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No time/energy to check as my wife said she moved all my "junk" to boxes which are under more "stuff" in the attic, or basement...she's not sure which.
Thats waht I get for spending my weekends away from home. ; )

Anyway, its not worth digging through my 'stuff' to prove an arcane factoid. But I'm pretty sure it was '89 that Porsche first introduced sodium filled valves to the general public as a standard production item. And i'm equally sure it was on the 964.
I would be shocked if such a technology was available commercially in '69.

But it doesn't matter as again my point remains the same.
The STi and we enthusiasts directly benefit from the bleeding edge technologies first introduced on relative supercars of years past. One can only marvel at the thought of supercars and STi's of the unknown future.

BTW, the US EVO has sodium filled valves too which is still a relative rareity to see in production vehicles.

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Old 04-22-2003, 11:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eby
First we need to set up a power outage for the New York auto show. Then we go in with night vision goggles......

oh wait, that's not what this thread is about.
dude.. i'm with you.. who needs night vision goggles when that pink badging will glare in the night...
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Old 04-23-2003, 04:07 AM   #34
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22B = Collector car
STI = Low volume car

BIG difference folks.

P.S. Speedshift = In denial. Go buy a liquidated 03 WRX for $3000 under invoice (yes, invoice, not MSRP)
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Old 04-23-2003, 06:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by robmarch
this link says 89 also. http://autozine.kyul.net/911/911_81.htm
I'm not following this. The STi, according to the documentation, has sodium filled exhaust valve stems. Quoting from the document referenced aove, about the M64/01 Porsche 1989 engine:
  • drilled and sodium-filled intake valves, which were lighter and increase rev by 200 rpm;
  • ceramic exhaust port liners, which reduce head temperature by 40°C and made sodium-cooled exhaust valves unnecessary
That says they have sodium filled intake valves. I might infer from the second item that they used to have sodium cooled exhaust valves, but they went to better port liners making this obsolete. Various posts on the net say Porsche has used sodium cooling in their exhausts since the 60s, but as with all things Usenet one doesn't know whether this is really true. You can find sodium filled exhaust valves for a 356, which does make one wonder.

Ah, here, on the same site: http://autozine.kyul.net/911/911_8.htm it is stated that the original 1964 901/01 has "Hollow, soldium-filled exhaust valve for better cooling." Not many companies used this, it seems, but Porsche seemed to use them on a lot of their cars, not just the performance models (though to many, all of the 911s are performance models).

I also see a press release for the 2002 Z06 that talks about the sodium filled exhaust valve stems. It's getting around I guess.
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Old 04-23-2003, 08:22 AM   #36
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that's what I get for not reading thoroughly I didn't realize the debate was intake or exhaust, I just figured sodium filled valves were sodium filled valves
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Old 04-23-2003, 09:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kostamojen
Go buy a liquidated 03 WRX for $3000 under invoice (yes, invoice, not MSRP)
Really? Where?


Bill
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Old 04-24-2003, 04:18 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by '04 STi


Really? Where?


Bill
I dont know, the dude didnt post it... It was just posted up yesterday that some i-cluber got an email from a dealership saying that, so who knows
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Old 04-24-2003, 08:55 AM   #39
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So you really have no idea if that's true, but posted it anyway.


Bill
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Old 04-24-2003, 12:34 PM   #40
Janq
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Quote:
Originally posted by '04 STi
So you really have no idea if that's true, but posted it anyway.


Bill
I'm going to help Kostamojen out of this jam.

Kosta, I saw that post and it was here at NASIOC in
General Community > WRX or 2004 2.5 TS .

The location cited in the post is the following;
Livermore Subaru in Livermore, CA (Bay Area).
Contact Frank Douglas.
They only have a couple of wagons in stock, but they have a ton of sedans availble.

fdouglas@livermore.dealerspace.com
Direct Line 925 245-6220

- Janq

Last edited by Janq; 04-24-2003 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 04-24-2003, 12:44 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Janq


I'm going to Kostamojen out of this jam.

Kosta, I saw that post and it was here at NASIOC in
General Community > WRX or 2004 2.5 TS .

The location cited in the post is the following;
Livermore Subaru in Livermore, CA (Bay Area).
Contact Frank Douglas.
They only have a couple of wagons in stock, but they have a ton of sedans availble.

fdouglas@livermore.dealerspace.com
Direct Line 925 245-6220

- Janq
that's like a $19k new WRX

this is an unbelievable deal.
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Old 04-24-2003, 12:47 PM   #42
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they have 3 manual wagons, 2 red and 1 white, and 22 manual sedans, silver black blue and white.
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Old 04-29-2003, 11:52 AM   #43
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Van Bortel announces their STi price: $29,600
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:46 PM   #44
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Default sodium and valves

as I suspected
Nihil novi sub sole

Most combustion engine innovations (except the ECU) were introduced during WW2.
This is what I found using google and sodium valve search:

Operating temperatures of a sodium-cooled exhaust valve as measured by a thermocouple
Sanders, J C Wilsted, H D Mulcahy, B A
NACA Report 754
1943
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1943/naca-report-754/

Krzys
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:50 PM   #45
Janq
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotsam
Van Bortel announces their STi price: $29,600
Good info!

Did they report any allocation numbers for the months/year?

- Janq
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Old 04-29-2003, 01:06 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotsam
Van Bortel announces their STi price: $29,600
with destination?

I previously calculated (as an estimate of their price): 28,580 + 550 + 400 = 29,530. their destination might be slightly higher, if they're not SOA, or the invoice might be slightly different than 28,580. Either way, they're keeping their promise.



Now hopefully all of you guys in front of me want a different color than I do
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Old 04-29-2003, 02:39 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by robmarch


with destination?

I previously calculated (as an estimate of their price): 28,580 + 550 + 400 = 29,530. their destination might be slightly higher, if they're not SOA, or the invoice might be slightly different than 28,580. Either way, they're keeping their promise.
I had that exact same $70 difference in my calculations when I bought my car in May 2001. I asked my salesperson about it and she said that they do have a slightly higher destination charge. The reason being that they get thier cars through a 3rd party that allows them the luxury of ordering cars with the specific options the customer wants. Also they can place orders each month and have your special ordered car to you in much less time then other dealers.
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Old 04-29-2003, 02:44 PM   #48
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they might be subaru of new england then, they have higher invoice prices, right?
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Old 04-29-2003, 03:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by robmarch
Now hopefully all of you guys in front of me want a different color than I do
What color do you want? I just placed my order with them.


Bill
1st on the list @ VB
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Old 04-29-2003, 03:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by '04 STi


What color do you want? I just placed my order with them.


Bill
1st on the list @ VB
silver/silver/no audio. ~30th on the list
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