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Old 06-02-2003, 08:58 PM   #1
0260B4U
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Default What is the right grounding points?

Well i just received my hyperground kit, the instructions say one thing but from looking around on scooby mods and elsewhere it says another , whihc one is the right way? And is there any dynos, evidence factual knowledge to back it up?
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Old 06-03-2003, 02:53 AM   #2
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Old 06-03-2003, 11:45 AM   #3
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This is a shady enough area that you will not get any "correct" answers, only ideas with questionable evidence.

Method 1: pick as many points as you can and tie them to the negative terminal. You basically branch out from the negative terminal.

Method 2: start from the negative terminal, and go from one ground point to the next until you come back full-circle to the negative terminal. You are creating a "circle" of ground points.
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Old 06-04-2003, 12:05 PM   #4
Wagon Joe
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for method 2, do you have to make it back to the negative terminal, or can you just connect a series of grounding points?
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Old 06-04-2003, 03:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wagon Joe
for method 2, do you have to make it back to the negative terminal, or can you just connect a series of grounding points?
The idea for method 2 is to make it back to the negative terminal.

Keep it simple and don't go overboard. Many people insist on 4 gauge wire, but I'll bet no one can demonstrate an improvement over Radio Shack 10 gauge. Heck, it's hard enough demonstrating that doing any grounding job nets any power improvements.

Remember, too, that 10 gauge can carry crazy amounts of current, so 4 gauge is overkill of the highest order for an application like this.
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Old 06-04-2003, 05:52 PM   #6
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Well i have the hyperground kit , just the instructions dont corelate from what I have seen people do
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Old 06-04-2003, 07:32 PM   #7
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Default Grounding Methods

FWIW:

I did this mod shortly after buying my 2002 WRX. At first, it semed to make a huge improvement, but then it went back to bogging and hesitating so the results are inconclusive.

If I had to guess, I would say that the majority of the rough acceleration people are complaining about may be due more to variations in fuel. In my case, it seems seasonal -- like the 'oxygenated' winter fuel is causing most of the problem.

That said, it certainly doesn't hurt to try the grounding mod. There is no need to go nuts with booster-cable size wire either. I used 10 gauge with THHN insulation. (The type of insulation probably isn't as important here as it would be in other applications because the wire is just for grounding).

Larger wire is not necessary and weighs more (for those concerned with keeping vehicle weight down). I know 'bigger is better' is the American way but in this case the wire will never carry more than a few milliamps (mA) of current. Even 10 gauge is overkill for this application as it can typically carry 25-30 AMPS.

If we were talking about relocating the battery to the trunk it would be a different story!

Also, pay attention to your connections -- make sure the terminal crimps are tight (grab the terminal in one hand and the wire and the other and pull firmly). I like to use Thomas&Betts "Kopr-Shield" or similar conductive anti-corrsion paste between the wires and terminals, and between the terminals and the vehicle. Make sure to scrape any paint off and get to bare metal. The Kopr-Shield will prevent rust. I found that the factory ground on the firewall behind the intercooler was made over painted metal.

I like the idea of running individual ground wires from the Neg. (-) battery terminal to each grounding point. It may not matter, but battery Neg. IS the reference ground for a vehicle. It makes sense to me that all grounding conductors should begin as close to battery Neg. as possible.

If the grounding conductors are 'daisy-chained' together then at a minimum, any current will in some cases be forced to flow thru more than two connections. Not a huge big deal maybe, but we are talking about equalizing minute differences in potential. The fewer connections in the path, the better.

Also, for those who like to 'contrast and compare', it makes it easier to lift one ground wire at a time to see which (if any) are doing the most good.
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Old 06-04-2003, 08:56 PM   #8
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And how you you tel they are working?

I went to the driver side chassis, then the driver side strut tower, one side of the block where the ground is, then the other side where the groud is, ran one of the wires in between the 2 block grounds. then one from the engine ground to the passegar stru bar.

Im gonna order a few more wires so i can run it to the passager side ground, then from the passengar strut to the firewall ground then firewall to the battery or the other strut tower
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Old 06-04-2003, 08:58 PM   #9
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And how can you tell they are working?

I went to the driver side chassis, then the driver side strut tower, one side of the block where the ground is,all from the neg terminal.

then the other side where the ground is, ran one of the wires in between the 2 block grounds. then one from the left side engine ground to the passengar strut bar.

Im gonna order a few more wires so i can run it to the passanger side ground, then from the passengar strut to the firewall ground then firewall to the battery or the other strut tower


If it smoothed out the idle I cant tell since i installed motor , tranny and pitch stop mounts last week, so the car is rough regardless, and the hesitation was really fixed by those.

But all in all it does look really good.
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Old 06-04-2003, 10:15 PM   #10
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the ground wires are for the most part fairly short so you dont' need really thick wires. i'd say half use big wire for looks and the other half just have leftovers from car audio projects. i just poked around with my multimeter instead of just putting grounds everywhere, mostly because i have odd lengths of leftover car audio wire.
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Old 06-04-2003, 10:50 PM   #11
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One comment on ground mods and wire size. IF the main ground wire gets disconnected, the new wires are going to try to carry all the current. And there won't be any fuse or anything to protect them. Since the greatest current draw is the starter, which is fairly efficient on Subaru vehicles, the maximum current is "only" going to be in the 50-100 amp range. Which is likely to melt the extra wires, especially if hooked in a circle configuration. So if you have added extra grounding wires be sure to check the main ground wire occasionally.
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:21 AM   #12
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sajohnson, I don't mean to be picky, but the negative battery terminal isn't the reference ground for your car. If there actually is a reference ground, it's the engine block, which is what the alternator and ignition ground to. Some cars don't even have or need batteries, remember?

However, I agree with your recommendation of running all grounds to the negative battery terminal. Assuming your negative battery cable connection to the engine block is good, it's a very convenient place to join all the grounds. A single point ground is better than a circle ground because it prevents small potential differences from adding up, and also provides a single location to check if you have trouble.
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Old 06-05-2003, 05:00 PM   #13
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Default Reference Ground

vrg3:

You may be correct. I always thought of the battery as being the source of power though. Even the little electrons that are generated by the alternator are stored in the battery -- they are all on a quest to reach the Pos. (+) terminal.

I guess the main point is that as with AC wiring, it is good practice to have one single grounding point. In residential wiring, it is the ground/neutral bus in the main panel -- all grounded (neutral) and grounding conductors are connected there and at no other point. The grounding system (ground rod(s), cold water pipe, etc) are connected there as well.

I brought all 5 aux. ground wires togther at the Neg. battery terminal, but others have used a seperate grounding block and conected that to battery Neg. I suppose it would also be ok to bring all aux. ground wires together where the factory ground attaches to the engine block.

No warranty expressed or implied. YMMV. I am not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV.
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Old 06-05-2003, 05:48 PM   #14
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Something you need to take into consideration is that current flows from Negative to Positive. All you are doing is creating an easier path for power to get to the places you need it. Making sure your main ground running off the battery is good and clean is probably better than adding an assload of wires to your system...
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Old 06-06-2003, 09:59 AM   #15
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sajohnson:

The alternator pumps those electrons out, but lots of them find their way into your ignition system, headlights, radio, radiator fans, fuel injection system, etc... The battery just saves them up for when the alternator can't do that job (i.e. when starting). If your battery is providing any of the current while the engine is running, your car's in bad shape.

But yeah, you're exactly right in comparing it to AC wiring. Using the negative battery terminal is just a very convenient way of creating that single point, since the whole problem is that our ground bus (the car body itself) is not satisfactory.

For what it's worth, I have a 4-gauge grounding wire going from my negative terminal to a distribution block, from where I take 8-gauge wires to each grounding point.

OKRS25:

Actually, it doesn't matter at all which way current flows. Electrons flow from negative to positive, but holes flow from positive to negative. In any case, it's still a complete circuit.

The point of the grounding mod isn't quite just to make an easier path for the current to flow; it's to ensure that all systems use the same reference voltage for ground. The car's chassis and all metal parts bolted to it usually serve to provide the ground everywhere. The problem is that resistance in this connection allows (for example) the MAF sensor to generate a reading of 3.2 volts but for the ECU to read it as 3.1 volts. When you run new high-capacity ground wires from near each sensor and the ECU to a single point, you bring all the reference ground voltages together.
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Old 06-06-2003, 08:20 PM   #16
sajohnson
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[angry old man voice]: You kids with your fancy distribution blocks and and your 4 gauge cables...when I was a boy we used BAILING WIRE, and we LIKED it... [old man falls asleep].

Seriously, when I first did this mod I was skeptical -- it sounded like one of those audiophile "improvements" for home stereo gear like cryoenically freezing CD's.

However, immediately after I did the mod, my WRX was noticibly smoother. I was an instant convert. I had changed nothing else and the roughness and hesitation during acceleration were just about GONE! IIRC, I started a thread called "The Miracle Mod" (or something like that) that became a sticky. I don't know if it still is.

Anyway, after a few months, the hesitation came back. I tried resetting the ECU and that helped for awhile, but it came back again. This was during the winter, when we get oxygenated fuel. Recently, in the last couple months, it has been running great, and I haven't done anything to it. Strange.

I still can't explain the drastic difference the grounding mod made initially -- it was like a totally different car. BTW, I purposely did not reset the ECU when doing the mod. Because of the way I connected my ground wires I was able to leave the battery connected (I even had the CD player going).

PS: I never liked the hole theory of current flow. To me it is like saying the cars on the Interstate aren't moving north, the spaces between the cars are moving south!
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Old 06-07-2003, 06:46 AM   #17
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Hehe...

Well, some people believe that the ECU "learns around" the supposedly improved grounding... As if it were programmed to behave badly and you only trick it into behaving right or something.

The spaces between the cars are moving south!
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Old 06-07-2003, 06:22 PM   #18
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"The spaces between the cars are moving south!"

Mom, that mean boy vrg3 is making my head hurt!
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Old 06-18-2003, 01:28 PM   #19
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So when doing this mod, you just fasten all the wires to the neg. terminal? How do they all fit on the small bolt?
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Old 06-18-2003, 03:10 PM   #20
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sajohnson -

FangWRX - You put ring terminals on all the wires. The ring terminals aren't all that thick so you can stack several of them on. If you do in fact stack on so many that you can't thread the bolt back in properly, you could get a longer bolt with the same metric thread.
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Old 06-18-2003, 03:12 PM   #21
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Thanks vrg3, I'll give it a shot.
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Old 06-18-2003, 10:29 PM   #22
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Default Attaching Grounding Wires to Neg. Terminal

I used a special terminal that is meant for grounding one or more wires to an equipment box.

I can't think of the name of it but it worked perfectly, and eliminates the need for ring terminals at that end. It is designed to accept bare wire. All 5 10 gauge wires fit with room to spare. It is solid copper and consists of three parts -- the terminal itself, a screw and a 'saddle'. I used a little "Kopr-Shield" and fastened it directly to the Neg. terminal using the existing terminal bolt.

IIRC, I posted pictures of this on the original thread -- "Miracle Mod" or something similar.

Another advantage is that you can disconnect one or more ground wires without disturbing the Neg. battery cable terminal.
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Old 06-20-2003, 04:53 PM   #23
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I just installed the Lineage grounding kit. All except for the tranny ground point. I will just not yet. Before this, in a residential area, at a stop, I woiuld give it gas and let clutch out between 1500-2000 and the car would surge and buck. Man I suck with a clutch. So I thought. I installed them sort of like the instructions. Now the car rolls off smooth as silk. Everytime. Amazing. Completly changed roll off behavior. Idle's smoother as well. Something seems different when I get on it too. Smoother? Revs more easily? Boost seems stronger? I can not put my finger on it. The cars "character" for lack of a better term seems different. This is on the same tank of gas that I had before the mod by the way.

I just hope it stays after reading this. If it dosen't, what would removing the wires have. Assuming the ECU learning is involved. Seems it would run twice as rough as before?

Oh well. got my fingers crossed that I some how found THE magic grounding points that no one else has. If still running smooth by the end of the summer I will post where I grounded. Unless some one wants them now.
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Old 06-20-2003, 05:21 PM   #24
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If you could post them now that'd be great, because I plan on doing this mod and would like as much reference as I can get. Also, where did you get your kit and what does it include?
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Old 06-20-2003, 05:45 PM   #25
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Dyno-Comp has a few of them in the shop and I was there so I picked them up. Vivid racing has them. It includes the wires, zip ties and washers. Truthfully, you can buy the wires and do the install a whole lot cheaper. Of course then there is time to cut and crimp and shield and I guess your time is worth something. Factor all that in and I don't know. Perhaps not cheaper. Definitly more convienent to buy a kit.
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