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Old 06-24-2003, 11:34 PM   #1
Scooby South
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Default Attn 8Complex....Boost project

Well after Long hard contemplation..I think I have a solution to my problems..sorta.. but I need some constructive imput. I have wanted Boost on my RS forever...(Already had a Minnam Stage 2) It didn't work out...( Blown motor)...Well then I was thinkin about doing a WRX engine swap...which still isn't out of the question...but I have an opportunity to build a decent motor from a Phase 1 2.5 block...Heres what I am thinkin...
97 2.5 block, tear it down...semi close the block...and order Forester Turbo Pistons, and Rods...so basically the bottom end would be built...( I don't plan on HUGE amounts of boost, just around 15-17 psi..)....I have a set of 4 cam heads also that would be reworked for turbo application.......some odd ball questions here....





What kind of ECU should I go with....WRX ( For UTEC tuning) Turbo Forrester or Stand alone ( most expensive and something I am not wanting to spend $2500 on otherwise I could just put a Stock WRX motor in with ECU

Would WRX Heads fit a phase 1 block

What other problems will I run into to...



Turbo manifolds from a WRX will work so uppipe and exhaust will be the same as a WRX....I have a ported Stock TD04 that I will probably use until I can afford something bigger...

Already have aftermarket uppipe, exhaust (3in turbo back), Legacy turbo Xmember, Ported turbo, Intercooler, WRX fuel pump, WRX inj., samco intercooler hoses, samco inlet pipe, TXS intake, TXS BOV, and some other goodies I have been hording away in my garage so I can do my motor........

suggestions and Experiences welcome..which way should I go...price is right on the shortblock and heads....(Free wahooo) but I will end up spending money on an intake manifold, Throttle body and all the other stuff..I have the PS and ALT I can use from my current 2.5....so thats not an issue...Help me if you can...

Thanks
Bill
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Old 06-25-2003, 12:52 AM   #2
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I haven't heard very good things about the new EJ25 -T'd motors (the EJ257 of the STi in particular, but I am assuming it propogates to the Forester's as well). I don't have a solid source on it, but I've heard they are prone to big-end failures like the brits have gotten over the years (I believe they get them often in phase 1 motors).

I am not entirely sure that the phase 2 Forester turbo pistons/rods can be used in a phase 1 EJ25. I just don't know for sure.

I'm almost tempted to try out a phase 1 EJ22T block with a EJ25 phase 1 crank and custom pistons and rods, making for about a 2.4L motor with semi-closed deck, piston oil squirters and fairly thick cylinder walls.

Regarding the kits... which do you want to do? Either can be done well, you just need to decide what type of work you want to put into it. While the WRX setup may take longer, the aftermarket setup may take more work to get everything sealed and working well.

Engine management is a very very tough one. The easiest setup by far is a WRX ECU with a UTEC, but this also takes some other WRX components like the timing belt crank pulley, MAP sensor, MAF sensor, the wiring harnesses, a turbo crossmember, etc.



In the end it all comes down to a few questions :

How much work do you want to do?
How much money do you want to spend?
How much power do you want to make?
Where do you want the powerband?

Things like the first question can be double-edged swords... it can be set up all at once and take longer, but you'll have much less work in the long run maintaining it. Same goes for the second question.

The third and fourth questions are hard to answer if you haven't felt what you want already. These two questions can also answer other questions for you, like what you're going to do about the driveline after so much power is going through it and shattering gears or diffs often.
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Old 06-25-2003, 01:02 AM   #3
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Basically dont cheap out.$2500 is a low budget for a RS-t,Granted it can be done I broke my budget by about $25 and some change.($2000 budget)But I quickly out grew it and put the money where i should have to begin with.Link + and RC injectors.Now I'm up to $3600,+ the $1200 I spent on an XT shortblock and $150 or so on misc gaskets nuts bolts etc.$5000,Had I listened to others I would have just bought a STi front clip and did a full conversion (RHD even)
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Old 06-25-2003, 12:15 PM   #4
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also might be worth looking at a ej255 short block (forester xt)
for ease of assembly... not that any one know ANY thing about them yet
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Old 06-26-2003, 10:22 PM   #5
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thanks guys...appreciate the feedback...as for the Forester turbo block...its the same part number as the STi..which is $1300 for a short block...which is still over my budget...might as well get the WRX motor.....complete...I am not trying to do as cheap as I can...but since I have the afformentioned Block and heads for free...I was just trying to get some decent low end....

I will be using this for a daily driver and a autoX machine...(SM here I come...Yahhhhhhh)...I don't want monster power...somewhere around 225-250 to the wheels..so thats easily obtainable...Like I say..I already have most of the stuff...so the only thing I am missing is the motor, and ECU itself..I can build the 2.5 easy enough...I plan on pistons, Rods, Rings of course...at about 8.5 compression...maybe 9.0...so somewhere in between there..The crank will be knifeedged and am going to a .25 overbore...I will probably o-Ring the head as well....so not a big deal there...the heads will be flow tested and rebuilt accordingly with cams and a Turbo Port job...so thats not the issue either...the question is the intake manifold...should I just use a WRX intake...with the stock WRX throttle body (Ported and Bored) or I can use a MY99 RS intake ( it can use Stock WRX injectors)..but then I have the tumble valve issue that the WRX has...I have heard there is fix to remove them ( gain of 15 hp...)..but I dont know the effect that would have on the WRX ECU I plan to use....so thats the plan...
Whatcha think..

Bill
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Old 06-27-2003, 03:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scooby South
I will be using this for a daily driver and a autoX machine...(SM here I come...Yahhhhhhh)...I don't want monster power...somewhere around 225-250 to the wheels..so thats easily obtainable...Like I say..I already have most of the stuff...so the only thing I am missing is the motor, and ECU itself..
WRX stock turbo set to 6-7psi, WRX piping setup (may need custom oil/coolant hookups), stock WRX injectors, small top mount IC (maybe even Forester XT one since it's short), and engine management is the only trick left. You WILL be able to put that kind of power to the ground and still be able to autox it due to the quick spool of the stock WRX turbo.
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Old 06-27-2003, 11:04 AM   #7
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Default pardon for me to jump in but...

i thought that the shortblocks for the new age sti or forester is not available for purchase?

I'm been thinking about building a phase II block myself. I have already talked to a machine shop that does excellent work on domestics, so I was thinking of going to them to get heads o-ringed and the block semi-closed, bored out to 99.7 or so....

hmm...let me know about that block scooby south if you don't mind.

good luck with your endeavor...

Kevin
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Old 06-27-2003, 01:59 PM   #8
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It sounds to me like you are puting money in the wrong places. The Link ECU will only run $1400 plug and play. Throw away any phase one 2.5 blocks, they had crank walking issues. All the ideas you have about fixing the block up pale in comparison to just buying the 2.5 STi block, and in the end it would be cheaper anyways. Oil squirters, semi closed deck, low compression and it is already assembled. Pistons, rods, rings, bearings and gaskets cost more than the short block. I seriously doubt WRX injectors will support 15 lbs of boost.

Last edited by SubaFastR; 06-27-2003 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 06-27-2003, 02:46 PM   #9
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First off, I've never heard of crank walk being an issue with any Subaru motor and that's usually an early 2G 4G63 DSM trait. If you think Phase I's are crap, check this thread...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=352136

Noit a bad block to go with either.


Quote:
Originally posted by SubaFastR
It sounds to me like you are puting money in the wrong places. The Link ECU will only run $1400 plug and play. Throw away any phase one blocks, they had crank walking issues. All the ideas you have about fixing the block up pale in comparison to just buying the 2.5 STi block, and in the end it would be cheaper anyways. Oil squirters, semi closed deck, low compression and it is already assembled. Pistons, rods, rings, bearings and gaskets cost more than the short block. I seriously doubt WRX injectors will support 15 lbs of boost.
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Old 06-27-2003, 03:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by seven881
First off, I've never heard of crank walk being an issue with any Subaru motor and that's usually an early 2G 4G63 DSM trait. If you think Phase I's are crap, check this thread...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=352136

Noit a bad block to go with either.


Nobody is talking about the Legacy block here. Do you really think Subaru would redesign a motor if it worked properly? I am only talking about buying the STi block vs. building a phase-1 2.5 block. It is a waste of money in comparison.
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Old 06-27-2003, 03:15 PM   #11
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edited my original post to be more clear.
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Old 06-27-2003, 03:51 PM   #12
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Ok, I've still never heard of crank walking issues on any EJ motor and the new EJ25 blocks are not being touted as bullet proof blocks. Also, the Phase I EJ25 cranks are used for stroker setup in the EJ22T. I brought up the EJ22T as a suggestion versus building up the Phase I EJ25.

If you're going to build a phase I EJ25, you're spend much more money on it than just buying the new sti/forester EJ25 or the EJ22T. Also, the WRX injectors can handle 15 PSI of boost, just depends on the turbo since they handle 15 PSI for me now.
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Old 06-27-2003, 04:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by seven881

If you're going to build a phase I EJ25, you're spend much more money on it than just buying the new sti/forester EJ25 or the EJ22T. Also, the WRX injectors can handle 15 PSI of boost, just depends on the turbo since they handle 15 PSI for me now.
That's what I was saying. 15 lbs of boost on a 2.2 will use less fuel than on a 2.5, requiring bigger injectors than stock WRX.
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Old 06-27-2003, 05:00 PM   #14
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Ok, you've still not coughed up info on CrankWalk, but yes 440's with 15 PSI is ok, it just depends on the turbo. It will more than likely fall out of effiecency range before it will cause the injectors to go static. I'm only .3L less and I'm far away from needing bigger intectors on the TD04L.
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Old 06-27-2003, 05:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by seven881
Ok, you've still not coughed up info on CrankWalk, but yes 440's with 15 PSI is ok, it just depends on the turbo. It will more than likely fall out of effiecency range before it will cause the injectors to go static. I'm only .3L less and I'm far away from needing bigger intectors on the TD04L.
gotta f u c ki ng hate pissing matches on the internet.
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Old 06-27-2003, 05:23 PM   #16
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Dude, I'm challanging you're statement and you result to cussing. You've made a bold statement with no facts to back it up. I've asked and you can't put up any. No pissing match, just calling BS when I see it. I think I remember you from the RS boards still got the same lovely personality, congrats!
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Old 06-27-2003, 05:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by seven881
Dude, I'm challanging you're statement and you result to cussing. You've made a bold statement with no facts to back it up. I've asked and you can't put up any. No pissing match, just calling BS when I see it. I think I remember you from the RS boards still got the same lovely personality, congrats!
Just tired of arguing over the internet. I don't remember the exact issue, something about the crank being able to walk back and forth leading to failures. Look, if Subaru thought the block was crappy enough to resdesign it for a mesely 165 hp, don't you think it would be a good idea to stay the hell away from it for boosted applications?
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Old 06-27-2003, 06:08 PM   #18
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I'm just looking for facts. I've seen way too many people, not you necessarily, spread a lot of mis-information. The only thing I've seen Phase I EJ25 suffer from is blown head gaskets even while still NA. The weakness of the EJ25 block doesn't stem from the cranks, thus I haven't seen any information to support your point. I've read about more turbo'd Phase I EJ25's fail from head gaskets or overboosting, but not from anything related to crank walk.

Also, just because something was reenginered, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. It could be a cost cutting measure or something like that. Since the phase I EJ22T use a similar crank I don't see any reason why the Phase I EJ25 is junk.
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Old 06-27-2003, 06:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by seven881
I'm just looking for facts. I've seen way too many people, not you necessarily, spread a lot of mis-information. The only thing I've seen Phase I EJ25 suffer from is blown head gaskets even while still NA. The weakness of the EJ25 block doesn't stem from the cranks, thus I haven't seen any information to support your point. I've read about more turbo'd Phase I EJ25's fail from head gaskets or overboosting, but not from anything related to crank walk.

Also, just because something was reenginered, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. It could be a cost cutting measure or something like that. Since the phase I EJ22T use a similar crank I don't see any reason why the Phase I EJ25 is junk.
I believe it is how the block holds the crank, not the crank itself. The funny part of our discussion here is that we both agree that one should not bother building up an originally N/A 2.5. For the money, just go buy a turbo shortblock. I understand that new bearings and gaskets end up costing almost $400 alone. Pistons can be had for $600, and currently rods are about $700. Now, Eagle will be releasing their forged H rods for the ej25 around November. These can be purchased at a retail level for $299. The JIC drift S13 uses these rods, and it puts out 600 HP. I am personally reworking some SOHC heads at the moment. Once my engine management and PDM water intercooler are in, I will be ordering a JDM 2.5 Legacy block that the new STI is based on. It has the squirters and semi closed deck, but has 9:1 pistons. I don't want to go crazy low compression, I like the bottom end to be there.
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Old 06-28-2003, 04:52 AM   #20
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I also have never heard of crank walk issues with phase 1 engines. only things i have heard of are fragile MAF and headgasket problems.

btw, there would be no "pissing matches" if you didn't say goofy stuff like ej25 crank walk!
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Old 06-28-2003, 05:23 AM   #21
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The only thing I can think of regarding the crankwalk issue is that the phase 1's had their thrust bearings inbetween #2&3, whereas the phase 2's have theirs at the very rearmost journal of the crank. I've opened a lot of motors and all of them seemed to have some minor markings on the side of the journals around where the crank counterweights have rotated. Can't say it's truely crankwalk... it may just be material expansion causing contact or even just some machining done before it was put together to assure clearance that just kinda looks like it was contacted at some time.
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Old 06-28-2003, 09:35 PM   #22
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Spun bearings I have heard of, but I thought the journals (or another realted part) could be modified to compensate for the deffeciency. As far as I know this is a problem related to the EJ25, but I could be wrong about that one. I've read about spun bearing on other EJ's motors before, but the motor is usually subjected to some serious extemes or had assembly errors.
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Old 06-28-2003, 10:37 PM   #23
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I don't think spun bearings are limited to EJ25's.

The most major issue that the EJ series has ever had (and I think it's phase 1's mainly) you can find on the bbs.22b.com forums, or scoobynet forums. There was a huge thread going on about big-end failures of rod bearings, mainly on 2.0's.
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Old 06-29-2003, 01:10 AM   #24
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Cool, thanks 8 I'll look into it. I should use the UK and Aussie boards more often since they've had turbo scoobs for a lot longer than we have.
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Old 06-29-2003, 09:09 PM   #25
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The Phase 1 EJ25 blocks were known for piston slap problems...

And theres no way EJ25 Eagle Rods will retail for $299...The Honda Rods retail for $399 but can be had for less most everywhere...

Zee
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