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Old 07-05-2003, 03:16 PM   #26
ripvw
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ET: Einpresstiefe, the German TUV designation for offset - and apparently the German word for offset. You will find the letters ET and a number either on the face or the inner rim of the wheel. ET is always in millimeters.
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Old 07-05-2003, 10:21 PM   #27
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Very interesting topic. I just have to put in my 2c worth.

I think there is too much emphasis on the offset as a concern for bearing life. My Outback H6 comes standard with an offset of 48mm. I have since upgraded from 16x6.5 with 215/60's to 17x7 with235/50's. I don't think there is much difference in the type of bearings used in a WRX as to an Outback and the WRX is using a 55mm offset (Subaru seems to use a lot of the same things in many models. I know the steering rack is the same as I use the same urethane bushings as the WRX).

I have to agree with Gravelrash a bit, especially when talking about 0 or neg camber. Most of us have 0 to neg camber on our front and rear wheels. Therefore the top of the tire leans inwards towards the centre of the vehicle. This puts the most load on the inner part of the tire at the contact patch. This means that decreasing offset actually moves this contact patch closer to the bearing centre and thus puts LESS load on the bearings when driving straight ahead. The only time the extra leverage effect is worse is when cornering and then only on the outer tires. Can you see what I'm getting at? Does anyone agree?

As far as finding what offset suits for clearance purposes I did the following for my Outback;

Get a piece of A4 or foolscap paper and use it in lanscape mode.
Draw a vertical line near the centre of the page and use this line as your mounting surface reference. From this line measure, say left of the line your offset amount (55mm for standard WRX) and draw a vertical line. This represents the centre line of the rim, so from here measure your rim width (is it 6.5" standard for a WRX?). Then draw lines to represent the tire width outside the rim lines (215mm or 107.5mm each way from centre line). You now have your standard rim/tire setup. From this you can then draw any aftermarket rim/tire setup you like using the same criteria. Remember offset is the distance FROM THE MOUNTING SURFACE BACK TO THE CENTRE LINE OF THE RIM not the other way round.

If you drop a string line from your fender you can measure how far out the original rim/tire set up was and from the above drawings you can see if the new rim/tire setup will fit inside the fender. If you do measurements on the standard rim/tire setup to suspension componenets and inner guards and also on full lock (both ways) on both front tires inside and out you will be able to see from your diagram whether the new setup will fit.

This is the way I did it when I upsized my rims and I was within a few mm of my measurements once the new setup was in place. I think the few mm I was out was due to the fact that some manufacturers tires are slightly different in width from their nominated width and that a 235/50 tire on a 7" rim will pull the tire in slightly from the optimum 7.5" - 8" width rim. Anyway the new setup is fantastic compared with the standard setup. Stops much better and corners much better and looks sooooo much better!
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Old 07-06-2003, 09:13 AM   #28
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2002 L.L. Bean H6 Outback (I had one) has a 16 x 6.5" wheel with a 55mm offset, not 48mm.

Last edited by Heather; 07-06-2003 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 07-06-2003, 06:41 PM   #29
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I'm talking about Australian spec H6 Outback wagons. Mine has an ET of 48mm. I know as its stamped on the rim and when I went from the 48mm offset to 45mm the rim itself moved outwards the 3mm ET difference plus the 6.35mm difference in rim width for a total of 9.35mm.
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Old 07-06-2003, 08:10 PM   #30
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That's interesting since the MRT WRX in Training book says all Subaru wheels have a 55mm offset, and MRT is in Australia.

It is nice to see that you throughly measured your car's clearance before you bought bigger wheels, most people do not think to do this and they have issues of fender or strut rubbing. Good job and I am glad the wheels/tires improved your car so much!

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Old 07-06-2003, 08:14 PM   #31
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So you get to drive your Outback in the Outback!

I guess the giveaway that you're not from the states was the use of the words A4 and foolscap. Not common US terms for paper.

An ET48 for a stock Subie wheel on a Aussie Legacy - and on Prodrive's UK website we see ET48 P7's and P1's for the Impreza-based Forester. Sort of puts a little spin on the wheel bearing issue, doesn't it? Maybe ET48 through ET55 is really ok after all.

Or maybe not, since my '95 coupe needed the wheel beariings replaced and I always ran the stock alloy 15" wheels with plus-0 tires on it. Could it simply be that wheel bearings are not the best engineered parts of our cars?

FWIW, on NASIOC the gospel on wheel bearings is that when they go out on the WRX you replace them with Legacy bearings, but remove the stock grease and use synthetic.

Gary
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Old 07-06-2003, 09:43 PM   #32
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Yes, this is interesting! I can't imagine that Subaru would change their bearing setup for different markets for the Outback (I don't know about the WRX). I mean the only difference with the US spec Outback is that they get 225/60 tires as opposed to our 215/60 tire. Which is interesting in itself as that would bring up speedo error issues. The Oz spec Outbacks are essntially the same as the Japanese spec (I think) as they are both right hand drive.

So, as you say Ripvw, the bearing issue with wider offset wheels (ie smaller offset #) may not be as big a deal afterall. As I stated in a previous post here (yesterday), maybe the smaller offset puts less load on the bearing in most situations as the leverage effect is closer to the bearing centre with neg camber. I don't know, maybe someone can shed some more light on the matter.

As i write this I'm going to check the Australian Subaru site to see if there is info on the offset for the Oz spec Subaru. I'll report back soon.
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Old 07-06-2003, 09:56 PM   #33
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Can't find any info on offset for the Oz spec WRX. When and if I find out I'll post it.

Getting back to the Outback (sorry about that) our Outback is made in Japan, so we basically get what they get. I think the US spec is made in the good old US of A so I wonder why you have a different wheel offset and tire package. Your tire is 10mm wider, so 5mm each side of centre, which may account for some of the difference in offset from your 55 to our 48, but that still leaves a 2mm difference. Not much but it is still different. I wonder why. Why not yours with a 53mm offset, then your tires would sit exactly the same as ours from the fender. Any ideas?
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Old 07-07-2003, 09:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by SubaH6
I'm talking about Australian spec H6 Outback wagons. Mine has an ET of 48mm. I know as its stamped on the rim and when I went from the 48mm offset to 45mm the rim itself moved outwards the 3mm ET difference plus the 6.35mm difference in rim width for a total of 9.35mm.
I thought about your figures last night. Offset is spread equally inside and outside the wheel, so if you really went from 48mm to 45mm offset then your rim would move out 1 & 1/2mm. No more no less, and you said it moved out 9.35mm, it's that's true you MUST have started with a 55mm offset wheel to begin. Perhaps the ET stamp was wrong.

The MRT WRX in Training book clearly quotes that Subaru has maintained it's stock offset, on all Subarus since 1993, of 55mm this included 15, 16 and 17 inch wheels.

I think we need Subysouth to chime in on this one (please!)

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Old 07-07-2003, 10:32 AM   #35
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No! offset is not equally divided inside and outside the wheel at all.

OFFSET IS THE DISTANCE FROM THE MOUNTING SURFACE TO THE CENTRE LINE OF THE RIM. Thus, if I go from 48mm offset to a 45mm offset I get 3mm of the rim further to the outside of the vehicle. I know because I measured it on both original and aftermarket rims to check it for myself. The reason for the extra 6.35mm is that I went from a 6.5" rim to a 7" rim ie that 0.5" or 12.7mm extra equals 6.35mm each side of the centre line of the rim. Therefore 3mm of offset + 6.35mm of extra rim width each side of the centre line of the rim = 9.35mm that the rim sits further to the outside of the vehicle. This is precisely the figure I ended up with when mounted on the car. The tire used was a 235/50 which should go on a 7.5" rim according to the manufacturer but 7" is ok. This tire is pulled in a bit when mounted on a slightly narrower rim than optimum and this is where I had a slight difference in the planned result of where the tire would sit in relationship with the fender, but only by a few mm. Not worth worrying about.

No, the offset IS stamped correctly on both the original rims (45mm) and the new rims (48mm) because when I measured both rims I get the offsets as stamped on the rims. Like I said in my previous post, I even drew the offsets on a sheet of paper to check that what I was calculating was correct and the resultant worked out as I had planned. Do it for yourself if you have some rims to check with.

This 55mm offset you talk about may only apply to the USA spec Subaru's. I can assure you that it is not the case here for this Outback H6 or indeed my previous 1998 Outback.
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:37 AM   #36
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Further to this offset thing. If I went from a 48mm offset to a 45mm offset with the SAME width rim, I would have 3mm more to the outside of the vehicle and 3mm less on the inside of the vehicle.

As I went from a 6.5" to a 7" rim this equates, as stated before, to 9.35mm extra width on the outside and only 3.35mm extra width to the inside. Do you see how it works?
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:47 AM   #37
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Sorry folks for harping on about this, but I would like to clear this 55mm offset for all Subarus thing up. I just remembered that the Australian Subaru website has a download for the Outback H6 which goes through the technical aspects of the new H6 motor and its development and the VDC system etc. At the end of this ( I think about 16 pages) is a spec sheet for the complete Outback H6 including the offset for the rim.....48mm.
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:18 AM   #38
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Yes I see what you are saying, don't mean to argue with you. MRT is in Australia and it's an Australian book, not a US book.


Technically offset is defined as such:
Offset is measured from the centerline of the wheel, regardless of the wheel width, so the same ratio of width in front of and behind the hub will be maintained as long as the same offset is maintained.

Please post the link to the technical document you spoke of. I'd be very interested in reading it!

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Old 07-07-2003, 12:28 PM   #39
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http://subaru.com.au/downloads/63752.pdf

second to last page

Forester is ET48 as well

Last edited by ripvw; 07-07-2003 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 07-07-2003, 01:01 PM   #40
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SubaH6 is correct in his offset adjustments. If you go from a +53mm to a +48mm on the same rim width, the rim simply moves out 5mm, and vice versa. If you change the rim width you add or subtract half of that to figure how much you moved in or out.

I am not suprised to find some variation of offset on different platforms and I am also not suprised to see lower offsets on narrower tired vehicles. IMO the key to extended bearing safety is considering how far the tire is extending outside the hub face. I the case of the OB, running a narrower tire safely allows Subaru to use a lower offset to widen the track a little. Meaning they do this because there is some upside and no real downside(clearance or bearing wear issue) to it.

On the wider tired versions, a higher offset is maintained because they are putting a lot more tire and wheel outside the hub face(increasing the leverage the front of the rim has on the hub) and need an amount of tire and wheel inside the hub face to balance the load.

For the record, I also think an amount of variation of the ideal is ok as long as clearance, both fender and strut, is ok. On my car in particular,which has narrow wheelwells, offset is very important to avoiding fender rubbing.

ss

SubaH6 could you do us a favor and edit your location to Aussie-land please? Your posts were confusing me until I caught that bit.
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Old 07-07-2003, 02:24 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by SubaH6
Sorry folks for harping on about this, but I would like to clear this 55mm offset for all Subarus thing up.
Sorry SubaH6 I was wrong. I was not able to read the document since my Acrobat is not working, but I will trust you. I guess I can't take my technical books as pure fact, when indeed MRT was wrong about Subaru offsets.

So will the 48mm OZ superleggra's work on my WRX wagon without any rubbing issues or without causing too much strain on my wheel bearings and steering rack? I guess I'd have to take a risk to find-out and I'm not willing to do that without more knowledge in this area.

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Old 07-07-2003, 09:54 PM   #42
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Sorry to cause confusion Subysouth. I will attent to that after this post to read Sydney Australia.

No probs Heather. The offset debate can be a little confusing. But I maintain that if you draw the offset on a piece of paper using the mounting surface (ie hubface) as your reference point you can't go wrong.

To see if your Oz Superleggras fit just drop a string line from the fender and measure the distance from the string to the tire and to the rim of the original setup. Work out your offset of the new rims/tires do a little math and you will see if the new setup will fit.

The Oz Superleggra setup will push the outside rim face outwards towards the fender by 7mm (assuming the original rims are 55 offset). If the Superleggras are 7" and the originals are 6.5" then you will have an extra 6.35mm pushed out as well. So the total the new rims will sit outwards towards the fenders will be 13.35mm. Now if you are using the same width tire (ie 215) then the tire will sit out this far as well (maybe a slightly wider by a mm or 2 as the tire will push out slightly on a wider rim than 6.5"), so you will see from your string line measurement how the tire/rim setup will fit and whether it will rub the fender on the outside or not.

AS for the inside of the rim/tire, with the above figures, the rim will sit again outwards a further 7mm away from suspension struts etc (due to the extra 7mm offset) except with a 7" rim then it is 7mm (extra offset outwards) minus 6.35mm (extra rim width back inwards) so only .65mm further away from the centre of the vehicle. So you can see that with the same width tire on a 7" rim you will have no clearance issues with the inside components of the vehicle ie suspension struts and linkages etc. as the tire/rim is almost exactly (0.65mm diff) in the same place as the original. The only issues you may have with this setup is that:
1) The outer side of the tire may rub the fender (check the string line measurement of the original setup and calculate from the above figures how it will sit on the new setup)
2) On full lock on the front wheels the outer edge of the tire may rub on the mudflap on the rear of the front mudguard near the front door. If you measured this on the original rim/tire setup you will be able to see if the new rim/tire setup will rub here because it sits further out by 13.35mm according to the above measurements.

As for bearing/linkage life I doubt that there is that much of an issue here as I think most of the leverage effect comes from the inside of the tire because of the negative camber of all the wheels.

Heather, did I use the correct offsets and rim widths in my above calculations?. I know you stated the Oz Superleggras are 48mm offset and the originals are I think 55 as you stated previously so I think thats right, but what rim widths are we talking about? I can give more accurate figures if the I know the rim widths.

Lance
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Old 07-08-2003, 09:19 AM   #43
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Originally posted by SubaH6
Heather, did I use the correct offsets and rim widths in my above calculations?. I know you stated the Oz Superleggras are 48mm offset and the originals are I think 55 as you stated previously so I think thats right, but what rim widths are we talking about? I can give more accurate figures if the I know the rim widths. Lance
Yes you are absolutely correct in your offset assessment. The wheels are on hold until we can afford them though I think I will wait until my Pilot Sport A/S tires wear out that way there will be plenty of time to test the current set-up and wait for all the Manufacturers to come out with 53mm 17 x 7 or 17 x 7.5" wheels! With the popularity of the WRX and STi they are bound to make wheels with the proper offsets soon enough, I hope

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Old 07-23-2003, 11:39 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heather

Technically offset is defined as such:
Offset is measured from the centerline of the wheel, regardless of the wheel width, so the same ratio of width in front of and behind the hub will be maintained as long as the same offset is maintained.
Is that correct? I don't see how the ratio will be preserved. It is a measure of distance not percentage, right?


Good thread...
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Old 07-23-2003, 01:35 PM   #45
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No...the comment/quote is not correct....I have proved this several times in this thread...some folks just don't want to stop and think about what they are saying/quoting...
The ratio of width in front of and behind hub will not be the same if you change the width of the wheel and keep the same offset of a wheel of different width.
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Old 07-23-2003, 07:04 PM   #46
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Heather - to adress your question, the 17 inch SL will NOT rub your wagon, so long as you are using the correct tire size for the application (251/45/17).....I speaketh from experience

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Old 07-23-2003, 07:19 PM   #47
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As you play with wheel width, offset must inherently change as well. If you keep the offset the same, and increase width, that "extra" width is split evenly between the front and back of the wheel....which is why it would not work for most cars out there. Typically speaking, the wider you go, the closer to ")" your offset will be. And, since that decrease in offset should also be accompanied by an increase in width, it really remains to be seen if the actual load points change for the better or the worse.

Someone said it best above...its always about compromises. What the factory does is not always gospel, as they have their own motivations for doing things as well. Conversely, what people typically theorize about does not always hold an ounce full of water when actually dissected.

You are not going to see many 17x7 or 17x7.5, +53 wheels anytime soon....Subaru has been incredibly popular everywhere else in the world for long before they ever got here. As it is, the offsets the car calls for are pretty much unique....often the wheels listed for the WRX will simply not fit another car, period.

There are already a TON of Subaru specific wheels offered from tons of manufacturers...and truth be told, I think they did their homework before going into production. Like I said, these are not wheels that fit a huge cross hatch of cars, but are 100% Subaru specific (such as the Advan RCII, 17x8.5, +45, which is a wheel made specifically for the STi's with the Brembo's....). There are many others out there as well.

Adam
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:08 PM   #48
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Old 07-24-2003, 09:32 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by BriDrive
No...the comment/quote is not correct....I have proved this several times in this thread...some folks just don't want to stop and think about what they are saying/quoting...
The ratio of width in front of and behind hub will not be the same if you change the width of the wheel and keep the same offset of a wheel of different width.
The quote I wrote (Offset is measured from the centerline of the wheel, regardless of the wheel width, so the same ratio of width in front of and behind the hub will be maintained as long as the same offset is maintained) is correct. It is directly out of the book, "How To Make Your Car Handle" by Fred Puhn, who is an expert in the field. He is not wrong.
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:00 PM   #50
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so,
given a common offset, [(.5*width)-offset] / [(.5*width)+offset] is the same regardless of the measured width?

I'm not debating with you Heather, but I just don't see it. Am I missing something?

It would seem the smaller the width of the whell the more significant the offset would be.
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