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Old 07-07-2003, 09:40 AM   #1
Elliot
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Default Timing setting for 2002RS-T running 12+ psi!!

For those running 12+ psi!!
can you tell me what are the timming settings you are running? I ll be using the factory ECU and an ITC to controll timming

Example at 4500 -2 degrees ( based on Stock ECU Setting).

Elliot
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:51 PM   #2
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Wink good luck

Good luck with your pistons...and are you running 12psi with stock injectors???
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: good luck

Quote:
Originally posted by latinskllz
Good luck with your pistons...and are you running 12psi with stock injectors???

Agreed...
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Old 07-07-2003, 01:28 PM   #4
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As helpful as those last two replies were, you may still want to seek out Larry Ganz. He was using a S-ITC running 12+psi.
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Old 07-07-2003, 01:45 PM   #5
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old school rule of thumb... -1/2 degree per psi boost at the torque peak. Honestly, if you have the fuel to not detonate with stock or even, heaven forbid, advanced timing go for it! Timing = power if you don't grenade the motor.
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Old 07-07-2003, 02:56 PM   #6
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All I know is that my ITC never did a damned thing for me.
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Old 07-07-2003, 06:43 PM   #7
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i also believe larry ganz had like 6 fuel injectors, and a very well put together kit...even though iirc he blew that engine.....
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Old 07-07-2003, 07:29 PM   #8
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My ITC was the sole reason I was able to run teh boost I did on stock injectors.......

it may help to list your other mods, as some of them may also be affecting timing (such as an SAFC)
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Old 07-08-2003, 02:32 AM   #9
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What max boost do you think i can run with (running 7.5 t0 8 psi for now):

Stock engine
Split Second TMC1 timing controler
S-AFC
Stock injector
RRFPR
Halley Fuel pump (450hp)

without blowing my engine on light to light race???
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Old 07-08-2003, 07:08 AM   #10
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I have no idea what kind of boost you can run, as everyone's car differs so much in terms of compression, overall running condition, fuel, etc. Not to mention the fact that you make no mention of an intercooler; if it is intercooled, what the specs are, nor what turbo you are running (housing A?R's, wheel trims, etc) Those factors all combined together will determine how much boost you can safely run.

Personally speaking, I ran 12 psi for the longest time, and then ran 18-19 psi daily for around 16 thousand miles before a rod pretzled itself. Teardown of the motor showed abosolutely no signs of detonation...pistons were free from any imperfections such as dimples or pitting, and coloration was uniform. When we left the motor with my engine builder, his final analysis was simply that the rod itself was not strong enough to cope with the boost/power I was running at the time, and that had I had installed either a set of raceprepped stock rods or good forged units and upgraded the hardware alone, the motor would certainly still be running....as it turns out though, I did a swap and the cars performance really took off!
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Old 07-08-2003, 11:31 PM   #11
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It si a:

99 RS stock engine
stock engine management (+S-AFC+timing controler)
t3t4 (turbonetics ballbering) turbo
WRX IC

more question???
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Old 07-09-2003, 05:02 PM   #12
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Anyone else?
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Old 07-09-2003, 06:41 PM   #13
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Good topic keep it coming. I would like to see more setups with the info. Turbo sizes, injector sizes, fuel management, any other info.

Not to highjack the tread.
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Old 07-10-2003, 01:11 AM   #14
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At 6000 feet I was generally able to run 2 psi more than comparable cars at sea-level.

On a VF22 turbo kit I used no retard at 8 psi on 93 octane or with no retard on 91 octane I dropped it to 6 psi. This was on a stock 2000 block with Torque chip and SDSEFI extra injectors. I tried 15 psi with 10 degrees of retard and 104 race gas and crushed #4 piston at bandimere speedway pulling a 13.7 qtr mile.

With a 99 shortblock that was o-ringed with fat head gasket for 9.5 or 9.4:1 CR I ran 5 degrees of retard at 10-11 psi on 93. This was with Air Air IC and VF22 kit with 2.5" 2-cat downpipe.

When I upgraded to an AWIC and 3" catless dowpipe I was able to do 7 degrees of retard at 14 psi, and was seeing <90% duty cycle on my stock injectors and 75-100% on the two 480cc secondaries, which was approx 360-375 flywheel hp.

This is the same fuel setup Elliot is running now I believe, but he is not using an AWIC as far as I know, so subtract 2-3 psi for the Air Air IC. I would assume at sea-level you would subtract another 2-3 psi from my numbers to run safe.

So 5-7 degrees of retard would be for 8-9 psi and 93 octane on a 99 block with fat head gasket and air to air IC, if the turbo is in it's range of high efficiency, and if you have enough fuel etc... However, Shiv's experience with a 99 RST stock block was to use 7 degrees of retard for 7-8 psi.

YMMV

Larry
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Old 07-10-2003, 08:41 PM   #15
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What trim wheels in the turbo? What A/R?

On my car, I advanced timing at 2000, and starting at 3000 rpm, I began to taper a bit. By redline, I tapered timing by 6 degrees, though I am on the east coast and can get the 93/94 octane at the pump (also ran colder plugs)
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Old 07-10-2003, 10:34 PM   #16
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On my stock MY99 motor I can run no more than 18 (8 on Link Plus) degrees in 3500-4000RPM at 12psi. It will ping if I go any more than that and thats with a 11.5:1 A/F (wideband read). I believe that's there my peak torque is at. I will find out for sure soon when I dyno tune. However I can go past 22 degrees by redline and it runs nice and strong.

I dont know how much advance/retard that is though cause I dont know the OEM ecu's timing at full load(atmospheric pressure).

I do HIGHLY recommend a programmable EMS and larger injectors to run 12psi long-term

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-11-2003, 07:55 AM   #17
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Great post!! any one can post timming using the factory ECU settings as reference point.

Elliot
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Old 07-11-2003, 11:51 AM   #18
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With the torque chip and 8 psi of boost, the factory ECU gives about 18 degrees of timing at 3000 rpm and climbs to 28 degrees by 6000 rpm - this is at 6000 feet, with air air IC and 2.5" downpipe.

An identical car without the turbo was running about 6-10 degrees of extra timing advance.
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Old 07-11-2003, 12:15 PM   #19
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Base timing should be around 16-18 as Larry pointed out. On the NA motor it keeps climbing, on the WRX it does different things depending on build date. Safest bet though is that you want to taper timing downward as full boost is sustained.
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:46 AM   #20
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Default Understanding Timing

Can someone here help me understand Subaru ECU timing better? It was my understanding that the stock ECU could handle pulling back timing up to a certain point. I thought that the computer kept advancing timing until it detected any pinging/knocking and then back off and re-write it's timing map. A good deal of people are adjusting their timing with ITCs and such but the computer does this automatically (within a certain range I believe).

Why can you not just rely on the Subaru stock ECU to adjust timing since that's what it's designed to do? If you boost up 1psi at a time and let the ECU adjust, then it shouldn't be a problem right? Or is it that WOT and part throttle timing maps work differently and WOT timing maps are set in stone? Thanks!

*You'd think as long as I been on this board, I'd know this by now*
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:24 PM   #21
skywalker
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Quote:
Can someone here help me understand Subaru ECU timing better? It was my understanding that the stock ECU could handle pulling back timing up to a certain point. I thought that the computer kept advancing timing until it detected any pinging/knocking and then back off and re-write it's timing map. A good deal of people are adjusting their timing with ITCs and such but the computer does this automatically (within a certain range I believe).
The reason you can not rely on the Subaru ECU is because it is based on a N/A engine (basic overview). So when the car all of a sudden starts boosting there is nothing in the fuel and timing maps for boost. The ecu maps are based on LOAD and RPM, so as the load increases the values change. But the load only goes so high on a N/A car. With boost you go out of the limit all the time, so it uses the last usable value to tune for boost. Of course when boosting you are almost always out of the maps for fueling and timing. But the boost and load values are constantly changing, but the fueling and timing on the stock ECU are all based on one particular point in the map because the values are out of range. So one point gets tuned but not well at all, because all the reading the ECU is getting are all over the place. It does the best it can to interpret what to do.

Hopefully that cleared that up. That is why piggybacks and a OEM ECU do not work for an N/A engine with a Turbokit. There is really no control for boost. On the 00 and up model RS's they all use MAP sensors that only read 1 bar (atmospheric pressure), so you can not boost. On the older model RS's, 98 and 99 they used MAF sensors (like that on the WRX) which can measure some boost as they ar based on load values which go much higher then the current boards.

These are just the things I have learned over the years.
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Old 07-16-2003, 01:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by skywalker


The reason you can not rely on the Subaru ECU is because it is based on a N/A engine (basic overview). So when the car all of a sudden starts boosting there is nothing in the fuel and timing maps for boost. The ecu maps are based on LOAD and RPM, so as the load increases the values change. But the load only goes so high on a N/A car. With boost you go out of the limit all the time, so it uses the last usable value to tune for boost. Of course when boosting you are almost always out of the maps for fueling and timing. But the boost and load values are constantly changing, but the fueling and timing on the stock ECU are all based on one particular point in the map because the values are out of range. So one point gets tuned but not well at all, because all the reading the ECU is getting are all over the place. It does the best it can to interpret what to do.

Hopefully that cleared that up. That is why piggybacks and a OEM ECU do not work for an N/A engine with a Turbokit. There is really no control for boost. On the 00 and up model RS's they all use MAP sensors that only read 1 bar (atmospheric pressure), so you can not boost. On the older model RS's, 98 and 99 they used MAF sensors (like that on the WRX) which can measure some boost as they ar based on load values which go much higher then the current boards.

These are just the things I have learned over the years.
You are simplifying and generalizing a bit too much I think.

The 2000+ models have fuel and timing maps up to about 3 psi with a good safety margin, and by clamping the MAP sensor voltage you can run to 5-6 psi albeit at the edge of safe. Observing the OBD2 scan tool, the torque chip clamps at approx 32in/hg and the proecm clamps closer to 34in/hg for more fuel and less timing under boost, the fuel cut appears to be at 35.9 (or 35.7) in/hg based on the manuals. Above 34in/hg you get CEL for high manifold pressure, but I have never tried going higher.

NEVER use a simple zener diode for clamping voltage, as in our testing they bleed off or change over time if the boost continues without you letting off the gas, and the clamp eventually lowers to 27-29 in/hg and you get too little fuel and too much timing adavnce if you don't get out of the boost after a few seconds.

Personally, at sea-level I wouldn't go over 5-6 psi without timing control, water injection or a much colder intake air temp, such as with an air water IC. At 6000 feet with 93 octane I could run 8 psi on a hot summer day (air air IC, 2.5" dp with 2 cats, VF22, and 2 extra injectors). Then with 5 degrees of retard using APEXi ITC I was running 10-11 psi on a hot day with 10:1 motor. Then with AWIC and 3" downpipe, and 9.4:1 motor I ran 14 psi daily at 5 degrees of retard.

As more evidence, in testing with datalogging from an OBD2 scanner, we found a 6-10 degree drop in timing between an NA car and a boosted car with the powerchip and torque chip (very similar results between the two chips). We suspect the combination of the higher intake air temps and the timing maps in the 2000 ECU is the cause of the drop in timing when boosted.

The 1999 and older don't have timing maps for boost since they can't measure manifold pressure like the WRX (which has a MAP and a MAF), but they still seem to do fine with up to 5-6 psi, again due to the safety margin subaru builds into the timing maps they put in the ECU. Possibly subaru calculated the MAF airflow numbers for atmospheric pressure WOT NA, and then pulled timing and added fuel for any air flow number that exceeded what the motor should see NA.

Also, typically, if you are fueled for 6 psi and have the wastegate set for that, you will almost never see 1-5 psi of boost as the car will tend to climb from 0 (atmospheric) to 6 psi in very short time, even at partial throttle, and whatever retard the ECU gives at the voltage clamp level of boost seems to be safe enough till you exceed 6 psi (assuming proper AF ratios, intercooled, efficient turbo, and good gas).

Hope this data from my own experience helps.

Larry
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:15 PM   #23
Elliot
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So finally any one want to provide a timing curve?

let say
3000rpm
3500rpm
4000rpm
4500rpm
5000rpm
5500rpm
6000rpm

Mariano?


Elliot
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Old 07-22-2003, 09:25 AM   #24
BOY
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Its called tuning, each motor is different. The rule of thumb I posted is a good safe start but w/o a dyno, wideband, and datalogging you could retard the timing all you want and not make the car run well. Its a balancing act, if you have the fuel and are det free you want to run the most timing you can... the only way to figure that out is with tuning.
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Old 07-22-2003, 05:41 PM   #25
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i'm just curious of one can use a wrx ecu or maybe have cobb reflash the stock ecu?
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